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D&D 5E What Would Your Perfect 50th PHB Class List Be?

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Warlocks are all about the creepy: necromancy, summoning, fear, darkness, and necrotic damage. It would take some rejiggering of the thier caster-mechanic, but warlocks are your dark emo-casters.
This would be a non-starter, for me.

Well, okay, the whole idea of taking the school specialisation out of wizard is a non-starter for me, but the warlock idea would be even if it didn't involve barring the wizard from specialising in a school.

Why not, instead, beef up wizard subclasses, so that the necromancer feels like playing a necromancer and the conjurer feels like playing a conjurer?

Just adding always prepared spells to each wizard tradition would go a long way toward that.
 

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MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
I see that you responded entirely seriously.
[Snip]
I got carried away when I re-read the surprise income inequality torpedo at the end of your post, and then failed to clearly connect those dots.
How was I not to bring up II, when you opened the door by mentioning eugenics? n_n

But consider: is becoming a wizard a path to life success in the same way that becoming a lawyer/doctor/engineer is? Wizards aren't typically depicted as owning large agricultural estates--which is where wealth comes from in pre-modern economies (and that's what fantasy pastiche largely pretends to be). So if you have land and money and want increase your power, wouldn't you want your kids to join a different power elite? Maybe kid number 3 trains as a wizard after the 1st one inherits and operates the estate and the 2nd one joins the priesthood of Pelor. Mostly, for purposes of occult utility and intrigue, you would hire a wizard in the way that you hire other prestigious specialized craftspeople.
This only makes the argument for wizards needing to truly desire power for power's sake. It isn't the go to path to ensure you make it out in life. Yet it takes years and years away from learning a craft, settling down and produce heirs, increasing one's political base, or learning ways to manage wealth. Even then, it being less practical doesn't make it less aristocratic, it makes it more aristocratic. A wizards apprentice needs to be able to afford not doing any of these things. How many peasants will be able to?

And, you know, we can dream bigger--fantasy societies can be communist, anarchist, post-scarcity, paleolithic, or (fan favorite) violently bigoted against wizards. Merit in wizardry--and it's proximity to the rich--is different in each case. As an idea--rather than a 21st century socieo-economic fixture--merit isn't farcical enough that it deserves those scare quotes.
And, except for perhaps true utopian communism/anarchism, none of these changes the dynamic at play. You need to have a lot of resources to become a wizard, and you need to truly desire it to not put these resources to another -better?- use, because there is this thing called survival. (And I doubt people would have a motivation to be adventurers in a utopian society? Even there, children of wizards would have an easier time becoming wizards than someone without that connection)



(Ok, there is an alternative or two to "only rich kids can be wizards". I saw the "I'm a genius and learned from a found/stolen spellbook" or "I got a rich sponsor by being a genius/their kid's playmate." Notice that this still implies the wizard truly desires to be one)

Finally, to your last point about wizards being on a neverending quest of power for power's sake, that needn't be the case. Arcane power can be an instrumental goal that is pursued in service of other ends--if that is the motivation a player or DM chooses for the wizard to have. That arcane power can be proactively pursued (mechanically) isn't sufficient to conclude that wizards do so compulsively.

To be honest, this perception is colored by previous editions rather than the current one. In older editions, a wizard needed to stick with a rigid routine to be able to even cast spells, and would have to actively hunt for new spells -even when 3.x gave the free two per level, these were acknowledged as off-screen hard work-. A wizard has to actively seek more power to grow rather than it being a side result of just adventuring/doing good/evil.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
A wizards apprentice needs to be able to afford not doing any of these things. How many peasants will be able to?
Anyone. Literally anyone who isn't likely to flunk their apprenticeship, because their room and board is the responsibility of their mentor. Or the state, in a more structured political framework that seeks to promote wizarding.
A wizard has to actively seek more power to grow rather than it being a side result of just adventuring/doing good/evil.
Hardly. If wizarding magic is simply a matter of practice and study, then it fills the role of magewrights in Eberron. The lamplighter is a wizard, because they have learned to cast Continual Flame with a special arcane focus item that obviates the material component, or makes the component the lamp, or whatever. That a higher level wizard can fill more roles doesn't change this, it simply makes it worthwhile to become a Master.

There is no reason wizards couldn't just be tradesfolk. It would completely transform society on a scale similar to the industrial revolution, but hey, that's fine with me. I find medieval fantasy pretty painfully boring unless it puts on the rose colored glasses and gets Romantic.
 

squibbles

Adventurer
How was I not to bring up II, when you opened the door by mentioning eugenics? n_n
Wait... what? Please elaborate.

This only makes the argument for wizards needing to truly desire power for power's sake. It isn't the go to path to ensure you make it out in life. Yet it takes years and years away from learning a craft, settling down and produce heirs, increasing one's political base, or learning ways to manage wealth. Even then, it being less practical doesn't make it less aristocratic, it makes it more aristocratic. A wizards apprentice needs to be able to afford not doing any of these things. How many peasants will be able to?
I'm not confident I followed the entirety of this paragraph, but responding to the last point, there are lots of ways an impoverished peasant could do a wizard apprenticeship (provided he/she isn't an unfree peasant). Not least is via the historical way that medieval people entered skilled trades. An apprentice (or his/her parents) signs an indenture to a master craftperson and then owes that person several years (often 7) of obedient labor in exchange for room, board, and on the job training. But, you know, being a wizard could also be as banal as joining the artillery division of a national army--in wartime, the wizardly training programs might not really be turning people away.

edit; it seems @doctorbadwolf has already made this point, sorry to dogpile.

And, except for perhaps true utopian communism/anarchism, none of these changes the dynamic at play. You need to have a lot of resources to become a wizard, and you need to truly desire it to not put these resources to another -better?- use, because there is this thing called survival. (And I doubt people would have a motivation to be adventurers in a utopian society? Even there, children of wizards would have an easier time becoming wizards than someone without that connection)
Well, a society that persecutes wizards would tend to change the dynamic too--few wealthy elites in good standing would want to damage the family reputation by having their children trained in the black arts. It could instead be disproportionately poorer people inducted into the profession in that case, with sketchy wizards abducting children to be their apprentices (read unpaid laborers).

To be honest, this perception is colored by previous editions rather than the current one. In older editions, a wizard needed to stick with a rigid routine to be able to even cast spells, and would have to actively hunt for new spells -even when 3.x gave the free two per level, these were acknowledged as off-screen hard work-. A wizard has to actively seek more power to grow rather than it being a side result of just adventuring/doing good/evil.
You're right that my reply regarding power hunger is less true of earlier editions--when wizards couldn't say "psssh, 2 spells this level is enough, I'm already miles ahead of that dopey sorcerer".

But is actively seeking arcane power to grow really all that strange of a motivation? Improvement in most disciplines is effortful--you probably wouldn't consider a lawyer law-hungry for wanting to read new legal opinions and journal articles, for example. A wizard wanting to learn new spells could be equally relatable (even if player murder-hobo-ism rendered that uncommon in practice).
 
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doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Wait... what? Please elaborate.


I'm not confident I followed the entirety of this paragraph, but responding to the last point, there are lots of ways an impoverished peasant could do a wizard apprenticeship (provided he/she isn't an unfree peasant). Not least is via the historical way that medieval people entered skilled trades. An apprentice (or his/her parents) signs an indenture to a master craftperson and then owes that person several years (often 7) of obedient labor in exchange for room, board, and on the job training. But, you know, being a wizard could also be as banal as joining the artillery division of a national army--in wartime, the wizardly training programs might not really be turning people away.


Well, a society that persecutes wizards would tend to change the dynamic too--few wealthy elites in good standing would want to damage the family reputation by having their children trained in the black arts. It could be disproportionately poorer people inducted into the profession in that case, with sketchy wizards buying or abducting children to be their apprentices (read unpaid laborers).


You're right that my reply regarding power hunger is less true of earlier editions--when wizards couldn't say "psssh, 2 spells this level is enough, I'm already miles ahead of that dopey sorcerer".

But is actively seeking arcane power to grow really all that strange of a motivation? Improvement in most disciplines is effortful--you probably wouldn't consider a lawyer law-hungry for wanting to read new legal opinions and journal articles, for example. A wizard wanting to learn new spells could be equally relatable (even if player murder-hobo-ism rendered that uncommon in practice).
The pursuit of new spells is the most relatable part of the Wizard, IMO.

Anyone who has continually pursued new competences should be able to see themselves in the Wizard in their tower seeking new magical knowledge, but especially tradesfolk, scientists, musicians, medical professionals, engineers, and many others. The best in all those fields spend significant time trying to improve in their field; studying the work of others, experimenting, doing projects or undertaking working challenges, etc.
 

Remathilis

Legend
This would be a non-starter, for me.

Well, okay, the whole idea of taking the school specialisation out of wizard is a non-starter for me, but the warlock idea would be even if it didn't involve barring the wizard from specialising in a school.

Why not, instead, beef up wizard subclasses, so that the necromancer feels like playing a necromancer and the conjurer feels like playing a conjurer?

Just adding always prepared spells to each wizard tradition would go a long way toward that.
The problem is overlap. That is, if a wizard is assumed to be a specialist in necromancy, in divination, in conjuration, etc., It's assumed they would have access to the best spells for that school. They would have important key spells at low level and the most powerful specialty spells at high level. This creates two problems: 1.) The wizard spell list inflates to give eight specialists worth of magic to use, and 2.) The wizard as built gets access to all spells on the wizard's list, meaning you can pick up the signature spells of other specialists at no cost and always have the best spells.

In AD&D 1e, magic users and illusionists had separate spell lists and the illusionist had spells the wizard couldn't cast, and vice versa. In 2e, they all got lumped in the "wizard" spell list, meaning a mage (nonspecialist) could choose freely from both lists and pick the best of both classes. In 5e, there are very few spells that sorcerer, bard, or warlock exclusively get because the magic they tend to use (charms, blasting, creepy) are also the domain of enchanter, evoker, and necromancer wizards. So the wizard gets the best of all classes, excluding a few signature spells like eldritch blast, chaos bolt or viscous mockery.

(I should note here bards being able to heal is an aberration to this discussion: bards are unique that they are the only "arcane" class with healing magic. While this isn't a role the wizard can step into, it's hardly unique with the cleric and druid both being healers. Focusing on the non healing magic of the bard shows they aren't doing much more than a enchantment or illusions focused wizard can do.)

I'm looking to make it that the other arcane casters aren't runner-ups to their own types of magic because the wizard has to be good at everything. Wizards are too versatile, and I'd like to see greater balance placed between casters by breaking up the wizard's role as default specialist.
 

steeldragons

Steeliest of the dragons
Epic
I rather like the idea of splitting up some, or even most, spell specialties to the different arcane classes...

I mean, if it were up to me, there wouldn't be so many to begin with, but that's never going to happen, now. So, here we are.

Wizards[Mages] are the masters of magic. They can figure out/use all the items. They can make the items. They can use just about any kind/"school" of spell [I would say, ritual also, even nature and divine ones] to some extent and some, even several, to a great extent. But, for the most part, the [most popular/best storied] specialist mages/caster types excel in other areas.

I think it's the Wizards that have the drive and intellect and, for some, madness/obsession to pursue the understanding and mastery of the secrets and powers of the multiverse. I think class options, a generalist is necessary and really should be...eight of ten wizards you encounter. The other types that are strong enough, both in D&D history and fantasy tropes, are the Illusionist and Necromancer, for sure. Conjurers seem pretty well established. Abjurers, then, I feel would both be a) a natural -as a foil to conjurers, but also just plain usefulness in a world where harmful magics abound- and b) has gotten short shrift for several editions. As I said, what is it you need magic for, most of the time? To go up against other magic. Whether that is to assist your fellows directly somehow or to cancel/thwart/mitigate harmful effects. The Abjurer, I feel, is a focal Wizard/Mage archetype that rarely gets its due (and the editions, for the most part, have not bothered to address at all. Though 5e does much better.).

Warlocks are cheaters, basically. Being given/granted powers and instruction, spoon-fed, to do with what they like. I second the association that this should be, predominantly the "emo-broody" casters guys. But I think it doesn't have to be entirely limited to necro and conjurations. The thing about the 5e warlocks with their patrons is very flavorful stuff and I think there is room to, at least, have two or three kinda of "emo-broodiness."

The gothy dark fear/darkness casters, sure. That's an established archetype. Hell, most "evil" casters in lit and pop culture are really these kinds of guys, versus actual mages or sorcerers (as D&D defines them) in their own right. But there's room for the Fae patron warlocks. If you want to talk emo or broody, or bright and bubbly, a fae patron with all of the machinations and intrigue they love to engage in is the way to go. Let them have the illusions and enchantments as good as -or at least to rival- an Illusionist [mage] or fae-descended "sorcerer."

Genies? I think there's some good stuff there to be mined. Being elementally tied to the element of their genie patron, some conjurations. Maybe even rival a fully "elementalist" type of sorcerer. So, I think there's room for a warlock to be more than just the necromancer/diabolist black leather and buckles guy. Though they are fun.

Sorcerers are just plain..."lucky," if not spoiled. The magic is just there, for them to play with. Fate. Genetics. Flukes of luck or rando super-magic experiences and POOF! They have/get magic. It's just given to them. They exist solely to give some new mechanic WotC decided they wanted in their D&D a place to live. I do think this class should be wiped clean, again, down to 3 or 4 options -maybe 6, tops- versus "any creature that exists anywhere that has/uses magic can make a sorcerer subclass..." The elemental/blaster association seems appropriate for this class -raw energies that need "figuring out," learning/manifesting control on your own, regardless of a spellbook or "imbued" understanding/power from a patron.

But where your "origin" comes from isn't really entirely relevant...or, at least, not in the intergral story angle that 5e tries to make it. Is daddy a dragon? Some ancient ancestor was cursed/blessed by an arch-lich-hag? Or you fell into a pond while a nixie was pissing in it?...Does it matter? No. What matters is what/which kind of magic you get to work with. Which element your magic is based around and, then, what other magics and supernatural powers might be associated with that element (I'd just go for the straight up classical and Tarot elemental associations) is what's important for the character's features.

Bards, to me, are [and should only be] primarily druidic and enchantment casters with some illusions, abjuring, and healing, and should be no more than half-casters. So I won't bother addressing them.

I do think/like the idea that the "specialist schools" could be something that any arcane caster could pursue. Why not a sorcerer necromancer or a warlock necromancer (the natural, perhaps) or Mage-Necromancer? It's just different practices/approaches to learning to produce the same magical effect.

Each specialist needs it's own spell list. Hands down. Should there be illusion spells in the "general" arcane spell list? Disguise Self, Invisibility, Mirror Image. Sure. A few useful "basics." But Hypnotic Pattern, Phantasmal Killer, Shadow Magic/Monsters/Summoning? Nuh-no. That's the Illusionist's beat. Whether that illusionist learned it apprenticing for a mentor illusionist or deciphers a dead illusionist's grimoire they found, had a fae grandmother, or made a pact with a djinn or ancient brass dragon, doesn't make them any more or less an "Illusionist" if those are the spells/powers they use/have/pursue.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
The problem is overlap. That is, if a wizard is assumed to be a specialist in necromancy, in divination, in conjuration, etc., It's assumed they would have access to the best spells for that school. They would have important key spells at low level and the most powerful specialty spells at high level. This creates two problems: 1.) The wizard spell list inflates to give eight specialists worth of magic to use, and 2.) The wizard as built gets access to all spells on the wizard's list, meaning you can pick up the signature spells of other specialists at no cost and always have the best spells.
Neither of those is a problem. Both are good things.

If you really want to narrow things, why not simply make some of those spells be bonus spells for that tradition, rather than general Wizard spells? Some spells of each school are iconic wizard spells, and wizards in general should have access to spells from all schools, but there's no reason you can't make the spells that make undead servants into bonus "always prepared, doesn't count against number of prepared spells" spells for the Necromancer. Combined with the subclass features of the Necromancer, that should make them great Necromancers. The fact that you can also make a Death Cleric or a Warlock of the Undead patron that is also a good necromancer is irrelevant. Having multiple expressions of "necromancer" that work differently and have different benefits is a good thing.
In AD&D 1e, magic users and illusionists had separate spell lists and the illusionist had spells the wizard couldn't cast, and vice versa. In 2e, they all got lumped in the "wizard" spell list, meaning a mage (nonspecialist) could choose freely from both lists and pick the best of both classes. In 5e, there are very few spells that sorcerer, bard, or warlock exclusively get because the magic they tend to use (charms, blasting, creepy) are also the domain of enchanter, evoker, and necromancer wizards. So the wizard gets the best of all classes, excluding a few signature spells like eldritch blast, chaos bolt or viscous mockery.
Okay. That isn't a problem of wizards having access to spells from all schools, it's a problem of some classes not having unique spells that should have them. Easily fixed. Meanwhile, the spell list is far from the whole of those classes. Most of their flavor and how they play comes from class features. A sorcerer and wizard with the same spells won't play the same, and sorcerer is the most similar to wizard of the full casters.
(I should note here bards being able to heal is an aberration to this discussion: bards are unique that they are the only "arcane" class with healing magic. While this isn't a role the wizard can step into, it's hardly unique with the cleric and druid both being healers. Focusing on the non healing magic of the bard shows they aren't doing much more than a enchantment or illusions focused wizard can do.)
Bards aren't really arcane, they just get called that for some reason. And no, I'll not support stifling the Bard into two schools of magic just so their spell list can be more distinct from the Wizard's. They have a whole suite of class features and subclasses that already make them quite distinct.
I'm looking to make it that the other arcane casters aren't runner-ups to their own types of magic because the wizard has to be good at everything. Wizards are too versatile, and I'd like to see greater balance placed between casters by breaking up the wizard's role as default specialist.
The other casters aren't defined primarily by their spell list, but by class features and subclasses. To the extent that what you're describing is even a problem, it's a problem with those classes, not with the wizard.

Each class should get new spells that are tailored specifically to that class, that no one else can ever get, not even via a feature that would normally let them take a spell from another class.
Sorcerer should have spells built with more change in how they work when upcast, that take raw elemental power or even raw magic and bend it to their will. Combining that with Sorcery Points will make a class that is comparably versatile to the wizard, but in avery different way. So, stuff like "if you cast this spell using a spell slot of 3rd level or higher, it no longer requires concentration." Stuff other spells just don't get to do. That, and some of those spells should be specific to an Origin, and only that origin can have that spell. Literally no one else can has, ever.

Bards should have spells that resemble the 3.5 Bard's Songs, that start with a bonus action and last at least 1 minute but an hour would be better. Give them a tag that isn't concentration that makes them mutually exclusive. They should be reduced in their focus on illusions, and to a lesser extent, enchantments, given curses and other debuffs, and basically should run the "spells that are meant to represent things people in stories did by simply speaking" game.

Warlocks should get more types of curses, probably sharing some with the Bard but each having unique ones as well, and should have a class feature that triggers when a target has been cursed by the warlock (there is an invocation that does this already, though it may not have survived UA), and should get some of the spells related to invocation and evocation in the RL western mystery cult usage, that is possession and calling forth and binding of spirits.

The non-arcane casters are easier, but I'd also extend this mindset to the 1/3 arcane casters.

Arcane Trickster and Eldritch Knight should both get spellbooks and prepared spells, and "always prepared" spells, with at least 1 per spell level (that they get) that is unique to them.

What shouldn't happen, is making the wizard more narrow, except as part of supporting the school specialists, by making some of that school's spells always prepared bonus spells for that tradition. If you're an abjurist, you always have Mage Armor, Dispel Magic, and a few others, prepared.

I'd also make Counterspell into a feature built into the basic spellcasting rules. If you have spell slots, you can counterspell. It always requires an ability check, with a bonus equal to +1/spell slot level used to counter the spell. A ninth level counterspell against a ninth level spell can still fail, it just isn't likely, but against a low level spell it can't fail. Perhaps include a rule that a natural 1 always fails, and a natural 20 always succeeds, as with attacks, maybe not.

Frankly, this would help other spellcasters keep up with wizards. I might also add something that if you use your reaction to push back against a counterspell, and you win, the counterspeller takes force damage from the magical energy being turned back against them, equal to your spellcasting modifier plus the level of spell they were trying to counter. Make it risky.
 


MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
Anyone. Literally anyone who isn't likely to flunk their apprenticeship, because their room and board is the responsibility of their mentor. Or the state, in a more structured political framework that seeks to promote wizarding.
Ok, granted in a world where society is so developed and magic so advanced that it can be distilled to the equivalent of high school science 101, wizards will be plenty among the working classes. On a standard feudal/medieval fantasy? not so many.

And again, we go back to the point where the rich can afford the best schools, the best tutors, the best materials and to open set up their own shops.
I'm not confident I followed the entirety of this paragraph, but responding to the last point, there are lots of ways an impoverished peasant could do a wizard apprenticeship (provided he/she isn't an unfree peasant). Not least is via the historical way that medieval people entered skilled trades. An apprentice (or his/her parents) signs an indenture to a master craftperson and then owes that person several years (often 7) of obedient labor in exchange for room, board, and on the job training. But, you know, being a wizard could also be as banal as joining the artillery division of a national army--in wartime, the wizardly training programs might not really be turning people away.
The thing is that a wizard apprenticehsip takes way more time and it is way more expensive than learning a trade. And unlike a master artisan who could always use more hands to produce, a wizard doesn't seem to have so much use for one.

Well, a society that persecutes wizards would tend to change the dynamic too--few wealthy elites in good standing would want to damage the family reputation by having their children trained in the black arts. It could instead be disproportionately poorer people inducted into the profession in that case, with sketchy wizards abducting children to be their apprentices (read unpaid laborers).

I don't know, what exactly do the wizards win by gaining an apprentice by force? there is nothing they get from an apprentice that they couldn't gain from an untrained slave. Even if this is convenient to the wizard, Wizard spellcasting is entirely a voluntary act. Nothing stops an escaped apprentice from burning the book and going back to a normal life where they don't need to fear persecution.

In fact, persecution will only make it more likely the powerful learn it. The rich and the powerful have not only the resources to train wizards, but to conceal the training is happening and to be secretive about it. Historically, powerful people get away with crimes and illegal things that nobody else can, many times even openly. I can see a noble family using magic without fear while the masses get killed on the mere suspicion.

Now, sorcerers living in a society that hunts magic users are SOL. Unlike being a wizard, being a sorcerer isn't an active choice, or a choice period. And given that it is a happenstance, more sorcerers are bound to belong to a lower class than to a rich one.

Sorcerers are just plain..."lucky," if not spoiled. The magic is just there, for them to play with. Fate. Genetics. Flukes of luck or rando super-magic experiences and POOF! They have/get magic. It's just given to them. They exist solely to give some new mechanic WotC decided they wanted in their D&D a place to live. I do think this class should be wiped clean, again, down to 3 or 4 options -maybe 6, tops- versus "any creature that exists anywhere that has/uses magic can make a sorcerer subclass..." The elemental/blaster association seems appropriate for this class -raw energies that need "figuring out," learning/manifesting control on your own, regardless of a spellbook or "imbued" understanding/power from a patron.

But where your "origin" comes from isn't really entirely relevant...or, at least, not in the intergral story angle that 5e tries to make it. Is daddy a dragon? Some ancient ancestor was cursed/blessed by an arch-lich-hag? Or you fell into a pond while a nixie was pissing in it?...Does it matter? No. What matters is what/which kind of magic you get to work with. Which element your magic is based around and, then, what other magics and supernatural powers might be associated with that element (I'd just go for the straight up classical and Tarot elemental associations) is what's important for the character's features.
Hi Steeldragons! Long time we don't interact!

The fun thing about the sorcerer is precisely that! That we don't need to care where the magic is coming from, just that it is there and isn't going away! And we could care if we wanted to, but we don't need to!

More seriously, are you aware that sorcerer has only like 6-7 subclasses tops? (We haven't even touched obvious concepts like the cosmic/star sorcerer from 4e or an explicit elementalist without the dragon baggage ) And well, with the sorcerer the monster manual isn't the limit, but the dictionary! I could easily think of many sorcerers associated to everything under the sun and beyond: sorcerers of dreams, of metal, of fabric, of bunnies!
 

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