D&D 5E What Would Your Perfect 50th PHB Class List Be?

[Remathilis]

why does no one go with five or six then?

Lots of people stop at different points. Star Wars Saga manged with that number.

My point is that any attempt to pair down class lists based on anything other than personal like/dislike of a class ends up with a clear path towards a customizable classless system. Once you try to combine classes into mega classes that have multiple choice points and can replicate dozens of archetypes you're on your way. The broader the mega-class, the closer you are.

It's all to say that any attempt to sort characters into classes is arbitrary, be it two super-classes or twenty hyperfocused ones. There is no inherent benefit to having a few generic classes that either having dozens of other classes or no classes at all doesn't provide. Go big or go home when it comes to classes!

 

[HammerMan]

Lots of people stop at different points. Star Wars Saga manged with that number.

My point is that any attempt to pair down class lists based on anything other than personal like/dislike of a class ends up with a clear path towards a customizable classless system. Once you try to combine classes into mega classes that have multiple choice points and can replicate dozens of archetypes you're on your way. The broader the mega-class, the closer you are.

It's all to say that any attempt to sort characters into classes is arbitrary, be it two super-classes or twenty hyperfocused ones. There is no inherent benefit to having a few generic classes that either having dozens of other classes or no classes at all doesn't provide. Go big or go home when it comes to classes!

this is why i am all for breaking up the wizard

#BreakUpWizard

 

[Shardstone]

Break the Wizard into the Mage, Necromancer, Mesmer, and Elementalist classes.

Mage gets things like War Mage and Bladesinger and Scribes.

Necromancer can have a reverse gish like Deathknight, maybe some blood magic, an exorcist, and so on.

Mesmer can have an illusionist, an enchanter, a color mage, a psionic mentalist.

Elementalist duh easy.

 

[Remathilis]

this is why i am all for breaking up the wizard

#BreakUpWizard

I could see the wizard losing a lot of toys to the bard (illusion, enchantment), sorcerer (elemental) and warlock (necromancy, conjuration). That would keep the wizard as a more generalist/Jack of all trades with a bit of emphasis on transmutation, abjuration and divination. They'd still get some classics like fireball and magic missile, but the other classes would have more focused options not available to others. There is a smattering of that already, but I'd like to see more of it and tighter focus.

 

[Jmarso]

Call me old school...

Fighter
.....Barbarian (No magic)
.....Ranger (Very limited magic starting at high levels)
.....Paladin (Limited clerical magic starting at high levels)

Wizard
.....Sorceror (Natural caster)
.....Warlock (Sold his soul to the Debil!)
.....Mage (Spellbooks and hard work)

Rogue
.....Assassin
.....Thief
.....Swashbuckler (Read also: Adventurer / Scout)
.....Bard

Monk

Cleric
.....Druid

All character classes to be made 'flavorful' with their backgrounds (settings) and pre-adventuring proficiencies. For example, tribesmen, samurai, medieval knights, etc.

Psionics would be an 'overlay' to the regular class templates- not a class of its own, making psionic characters special and overpowered compared to their peers, except in campaigns / settings where almost everyone had those abilities, similar to Kurtz's Deryni novels.

 

[Shardstone]

Call me old school...

Fighter
.....Barbarian (No magic)
.....Ranger (Very limited magic starting at high levels)
.....Paladin (Limited clerical magic starting at high levels)

Wizard
.....Sorceror (Natural caster)
.....Warlock (Sold his soul to the Debil!)
.....Mage (Spellbooks and hard work)

Rogue
.....Assassin
.....Thief
.....Swashbuckler (Read also: Adventurer / Scout)
.....Bard

Monk

Cleric
.....Druid

All character classes to be made 'flavorful' with their backgrounds (settings) and pre-adventuring proficiencies. For example, tribesmen, samurai, medieval knights, etc.

Psionics would be an 'overlay' to the regular class templates- not a class of its own, making psionic characters special and overpowered compared to their peers, except in campaigns / settings where almost everyone had those abilities, similar to Kurtz's Deryni novels.

Doesn't this game already exist?

 

[HammerMan]

I could see the wizard losing a lot of toys to the bard (illusion, enchantment), sorcerer (elemental) and warlock (necromancy, conjuration). That would keep the wizard as a more generalist/Jack of all trades with a bit of emphasis on transmutation, abjuration and divination. They'd still get some classics like fireball and magic missile, but the other classes would have more focused options not available to others. There is a smattering of that already, but I'd like to see more of it and tighter focus.

I put the mystic as the name of the jack of all trades class just because I feel that wizard comes with too much baggage. I agree we do need a generlist, I just (Much as you said) would give a bunch of other classes some of the spells as just there's. (Beguiler gets a bunch of enchantment and mind control with a little illusion, but almost no blow up stuff spells) (Illusionist gets all illusion spells) (Beguiler and Illusionist have overlap and share some spells) (Necromancer would be well look at the name) (Oracle gets all the divinations and some of the abjuration) (Warmage gets the abjuration too (overlap orcale) but also all the big blow up spells and damage) the mystic would have SOME overlap with all of the ones above but also most of the transmutation.
Swordmage/Arkananight would over lap with warmage a bit but get more melee themed spells.
then we could have at least 1 class exclusive spell per spell level for each, and at least 1 spell per level that only overlaps with one other class and a bunch of just arcane spells that appear on all the lists

This would also free up warlock, bard, and sorcerer to ALSO have some of those overlap spells, and some unquie spells.

yes I can imagine every one of those classes getting Fireball, & Dispel Magic as 3rd level spells but I can also see all of them getting detect magic as 1st level spell, but the warlock getting the invocation to make it atwill.

something like Swordmage Warmage and Oracle all get shield, Warmage mystic and sorcerer get mage armor (so only warmage has both) but the warlock could still get an invocation for shadow armor.

Necromancer and Oracle both get animate dead, but only the Necromancer gets create undead.


edit: and spell lists should be included in the class description then the later chapter would be for spell descriptions.

 

[Jmarso]

Doesn't this game already exist?

Does it?

It might...

 

[MoonSong]

I take great umbrage, friend, at the implication that any proper wizard has achieved esoteric credentialing by means other than merit! Why, sorcerous apprenticeships are attained through only the finest standards of objective divination and testing. And, surely, for a upstanding profession whose works include flight, teleportation, the manipulation of energy, and the creation of new matter from nothing, it isn't beyond reason that a few practitioners might, perhaps, at times, by some, be considered to be slightly 'out of touch'.

It takes effort, yes. But we have one of two options either it is entirely possible for anybody to potentially become a wizard or one has to be born special. In the first case, becoming a wizard is purely a matter of resources and inclination. The harder and "more meritocratic" it is, the more a playground of rich people it is. If one has to be special to be a wizard, then that is a sorcerer with extra steps.

And moreover, a wizard has to truly desire arcane power, and has to actively seek more and more power. That is the wizard class in a nutshell, the neverending quest for more arcane power for power's sake. there is no way that isn't out of touch.

 

[squibbles]

It takes effort, yes. But we have one of two options either it is entirely possible for anybody to potentially become a wizard or one has to be born special. In the first case, becoming a wizard is purely a matter of resources and inclination. The harder and "more meritocratic" it is, the more a playground of rich people it is. If one has to be special to be a wizard, then that is a sorcerer with extra steps.

And moreover, a wizard has to truly desire arcane power, and has to actively seek more and more power. That is the wizard class in a nutshell, the neverending quest for more arcane power for power's sake. there is no way that isn't out of touch.

I see that you responded entirely seriously.

Well, let me put a little bit of distance between myself and the tongue in cheek defense of wizardly status quos which you quoted. In truth, no umbrage was taken by me. The reason I initially quoted you was for this bit:

the D&D wizard is its own special brand of magic user that is anything but poorly defined. In fact it has the opposite problem, it is extremely rigidly defined to the point of being an idiosyncrasy with little precedent in literature and pop culture.

which I generally agree with and which I incorporated in my prior post via the parenthetical next to magic user: "but melt off the narrowly 'wizard' fluff/mechanics, such that the name change is accurate". Ultimately, in the process of writing, I got carried away when I re-read the surprise income inequality torpedo at the end of your post, and then failed to clearly connect those dots.


So having said that in the spirit of friendly discussion, let me, as a contrarian internet pedant, reply to your serious reply in seriousness.

I'm familiar with and vaguely sympathetic to contemporary criticism of meritocracy. But you make an unstated assumption in the first option you present--i.e. "The harder and "more meritocratic" it is, the more a playground of rich people [becoming a wizard] is."--that hypothetical fantasy societies resemble our own.

In the 21st century, wealth and education go together, the wealthy/educated invest in training/advantaging their children to succeed at tests of merit, and then said children, on attaining education and later wealth, repeat the cycle.

But consider: is becoming a wizard a path to life success in the same way that becoming a lawyer/doctor/engineer is? Wizards aren't typically depicted as owning large agricultural estates--which is where wealth comes from in pre-modern economies (and that's what fantasy pastiche largely pretends to be). So if you have land and money and want increase your power, wouldn't you want your kids to join a different power elite? Maybe kid number 3 trains as a wizard after the 1st one inherits and operates the estate and the 2nd one joins the priesthood of Pelor. Mostly, for purposes of occult utility and intrigue, you would hire a wizard in the way that you hire other prestigious specialized craftspeople.

And, you know, we can dream bigger--fantasy societies can be communist, anarchist, post-scarcity, paleolithic, or (fan favorite) violently bigoted against wizards. Merit in wizardry--and it's proximity to the rich--is different in each case. As an idea--rather than a 21st century socieo-economic fixture--merit isn't farcical enough that it deserves those scare quotes.


Finally, to your last point about wizards being on a neverending quest of power for power's sake, that needn't be the case. Arcane power can be an instrumental goal that is pursued in service of other ends--if that is the motivation a player or DM chooses for the wizard to have. That arcane power can be proactively pursued (mechanically) isn't sufficient to conclude that wizards do so compulsively.

And, moreover, couldn't I easily argue that somebody who gets their magical powers from a remote god-like being AND TALKS TO THAT BEING REGULARLY would be far more out of touch with the normal human experience (not that I am arguing that, I'm just pointing out that a case could be made pretty straightforwardly).


All that is not to say that you have a bad interpretation of wizards--everyman sorcs and warlocks juxtaposed to elitist wizards could be a compelling setting convention--but there are lots of other interpretations that also make sense.