System matters and free kriegsspiel

[Aldarc]

Justin H/Aboleth overlords blog
"When playing Pathfinder are you negotiating the fictional world, or are you making decisions out of a priority to game the numbers?"

So is Pathfinder (i.e., the "D&D 3.75e") what FKR has in mind when it comes to the massively over-complicated systems? This would line up with @pemerton's earlier hypothesis.

That said, I suppose a counter question for FKR would be, "When playing FKR are you negotiating the fictional world, or are you making decisions out of a priority to game the GM?"

The more you get to know your GM, the more you get to know what sort of tricks, tactics, and such that they use and how to win their favor. Or what are the usual sort of magic words to get past the NPC. So there comes a point, IME, when some gameplay in D&D can be about playing the GM. It seems as if FKR would be more prone to such tendencies. The invisibility of the rules heightens the visibility of the GM.

(Bracing for impact from fellow posters assault, now)

 

[Numidius]

So is Pathfinder (i.e., the "D&D 3.75e") what FKR has in mind when it comes to the massively over-complicated systems? This would line up with @pemerton's earlier hypothesis.

That said, I suppose a counter question for FKR would be, "When playing FKR are you negotiating the fictional world, or are you making decisions out of a priority to game the GM?"

The more you get to know your GM, the more you get to know what sort of tricks, tactics, and such that they use and how to win their favor. Or what are the usual sort of magic words to get past the NPC. So there comes a point, IME, when some gameplay in D&D can be about playing the GM. It seems as if FKR would be more prone to such tendencies. The invisibility of the rules heightens the visibility of the GM.

Ah ah!

Pathfinder is an easy target for those sorts of arguments, anyway.

Yes in my experience gaming the Gm is an art form at certain tables.

Does that issue take us to the Neutral Referee thesis, then?

 

[Aldarc]

Ah ah!

Pathfinder is an easy target for those sorts of arguments, anyway.

Yes in my experience gaming the Gm is an art form at certain tables.

Does that issue take us to the Neutral Referee thesis, then?

Sure. Why not? Referees in sports are ostensibly neutral, but a big part of sports is about drawing calls from the Ref. Are the Refs somehow less neutral in their arbitration of the rules because the players know how to draw calls from the Refs?

 

[Numidius]

Sure. Why not? Referees in sports are ostensibly neutral, but a big part of sports is about drawing calls from the Ref. Are the Refs somehow less neutral in their arbitration of the rules because the players know how to draw calls from the Refs?

Ok. I see a difference, though, in Rpgs in general and particularly in FKR, since one can't really argue about rules, the discussion with the referee/Gm is central, is part of the game, I dare say The game itself. So, not something to be exploited, but to be engaged with fully.

I would dare propose Discussion is the actual System. Gaming the fiction is the game.

 

[pemerton]

Justin H/Aboleth overlords blog
"When playing Pathfinder are you negotiating the fictional world, or are you making decisions out of a priority to game the numbers?"

Highlighted stats in AW come to mind, as an example.
As any player facing reward cycle.

This is why I mentioned RQ and Prince Valiant, which don't have these sorts of features.

 

[pemerton]

I would dare propose Discussion is the actual System. Gaming the fiction is the game.

This is what Jonathan Tween in Everway called drama resolution. It contrasts with fortune (dice, card draws) and karma (fixed values get compared).

 

[Aldarc]

Ok. I see a difference, though, in Rpgs in general and particularly in FKR, since one can't really argue about rules, the discussion with the referee/Gm is central, is part of the game, I dare say The game itself. So, not something to be exploited, but to be engaged with fully.

I would dare propose Discussion is the actual System. Gaming the fiction is the game.

Ideally? Sure. In praxis? I'm skeptical. This may end up being a distinction without a difference.

 

[Numidius]

This is what Jonathan Tween in Everway called drama resolution. It contrasts with fortune (dice, card draws) and karma (fixed values get compared).

I' been wondering how the Gumshoe skill points expenditure would fit in there.
Putting aside points spent in order to increase chance on D6 until auto-success.
So, comparing static numbers would be Karma res.
But, actually spending those points? (For various reasons, like finding more clues, content introduction, winning over opposition etc. Like a mix of putting more effort into actions as well as screen time available and also plot armor).
A subset of Karma res, maybe?

 

[darkbard]

So to land this airplane...no, I don't use genre logic in real life. My intuitions, inferences, and predictions aren't governed by some kind of "trope coefficient" (lets call it) whereby its significantly more likely that some naturalistic causal logic defying instantiation of an event is apt to happen (because the world is anchored to genre tropes). When I look at a V4 Boulder (the upper boundaries of my capabilities...they go up to V17 by the way...so that should give you an idea of how utterly ordinary I am as a climber), I evaluate prospective routes based on a lot of parameters (many native to me and my abilities but many native to the nature of the nuances of the obstacle). I have intuitions, I draw inferences, and I make predictions. But none of those 3 are anchored to/governed by "I'm the hero of my story so I really should be able to climb this" or "falling would be anticlimactic" or "the rising action should happen right before the crux and the ascent will be the denouement" or "that vent right above the boulder is where I expect a band of ninjas to drop out" or "is that a sniper at the top of that boulder across the way...of course" or "a fall and a broken arm and then cut to my montage of my recovery process where I beat Chad the Douche Climber in the THE BIG CLIMB OFF" or "the douchey corporate lackey comes in to foreclose on the place with a big jerk smirk on his face but we all rally behind the salf-of-the-earth gym owners and raise money through car washes and lemonade stands and punt the corporate jerk to the moon afterward."

My intuitions, inferences, and predictions are all grounded by a world liberated from any "trope coefficient" (sadly I might add). Hence, no genre logic.

I don't have much time myself to contribute to this debate, but I will note that part of what @Manbearcat discusses here as genre logic falls under the umbrella of structuralist critique, a critical methodology applied to literary works and other cultural artifacts since the early 20th century to significant utility in the humanities, spawning offshoots and reactions like post-structuralism, deconstruction, and so on in the humanities. Such a critique has been applied to other realms of analysis in the social sciences (maybe @pemerton had more to say about this?) in analyzing other human endeavors (linguistics, social organization) to varying and controversial degrees of success, but makes no sense in describing human interaction with the nonhuman world, what I take Manbearcat to be referencing in his framing of naturalistic causal logic.

This is to say, of course there are many factors that contribute to human judgments about their surroundings and subsequent actions, but these are not subject to genre logic in the way Manbearcat has elucidated it in his examples above, except perhaps in the clinically delusional (and I don't intend this in any way as a dig at participants in this conversation here but rather to indicate a psychotic break with "reality"). For example, and to extend Manbearcat's example, a climber makes many judgments about how to execute a climb based upon handhold and such and chances of success of various moves (naturalistic causal processes), but only the delusional climber believes they can make a given climb because they are the reincarnated spirit of a doomed climber destined to be reborn again and again until they succeed at the climb (genre trope).

 

[Campbell]

I'm not crazy about using gaming the system to describe playing a designed game as a game. There is a massive difference between exploits and just like playing the game in front of you.