D&D 5E Wow! No more subraces. The Players Handbook races reformat to the new race format going forward.

[Mind of tempest]

Playing a +2 STR race or+1 STR subrace with a STR class is not playing an "optimized combat machine".
It's common sense. The game recommend this to you.

And since both point buy AND array only give you a 15, with those options you can't get a 16 or higher without matching race and class. And you are stuck that way until level 4.or 8.

I had this problem doing a one shot. I DMed and offered a stack of premades. All 6 players picked the race/class ability matches, noobs and vets alike. Because if:

1. you don't roll
2. you don't match your racial ability scores with you class primary score

You are stuck with low scores until level 4. And STR 14 dwarf cleric neither looks strong nor plays as strong. And I think that's the other part. The game stealthily assumes a 16 in your class primary or powergaming 2 14s. The premades in the Starter Set have 16s. The example dwarf in the PHB has a 17. And some of the DMG math runs on a +3 bonus.

so part of the game's problem is the math works badly?

 

[Minigiant]

A 14 is not low.
I have played a 14 cha goliath valiant bard in a solo one shot. He felt quite strong.

I am playing a rolled character for quite a. Few. Levels now who has two 14 as his highest stats for a while now.
I can tell you that the missed out 16 in dex or charisma does not change a lot offensively or defensively. It is just one more hit for every 20 attacks and the damage comes from sneak attack or spells.

I get that. My point is to many players and likely the designers themselves, they expect a 16 primary.
Ultimately the difference is minor between 14 and 16 and that's why I don't like (sub)racial ability adjustments in the first place.

 

[Chaosmancer]

That doesn't make any sense. If the sword makes contact and you are twice as strong as the next guy, you are going to do more damage with it. The small weak guy might need to hit you a dozen times to hurt enough to take you out in a fist fight. The strong guy who doesn't hit as often only needs to hit once. Why? Because strength = more damage when you hit. High dex can also = more damage with very fine precision hitting vital spots.

But did you hit at the right angle for maximum damage? A flatter angle will cut less deeply. This is why edge geometry is an important measure of a blade. Just because you made contact doesn't mean anything if you want to start getting into it. That weak guy in a fist fight? If he hits your jaw at the right angle, or pummels you in the exact same spot, he's going to take you down faster than the stronger guy who only ends up hitting your forearms.

Why? Because "strong guy hits harder" isn't all there is to fighting. But the game abstracts these things. We don't care about a lot of this and just roll it up into a simpler system.

 

[Chaosmancer]

To clarify, I'm counting all non-sleep abilities as equivalent to trance. It's the mechanics that concern me here, not the fluff. I'd also resist any "what-about-X" lines of debate. Just because Powerful Build exists (and who knows, maybe it is egregious) doesn't mean I can't be disappointed that Darkvision is so common, or with Trance going down a similar road. We'll have to see how things look in 2025

I don't think Trance is going down that same road. The only races I can think who have something like it are undead and constructs. Plus the Thri-Kreen, which as Acerak noted, are known for their sleepless ways. Now, if we start seeing a bunch of other races getting sleep reduction abilities, I'll see your point, but otherwise it seems fine to me

 

[Chaosmancer]

No one is pushing you other than yourself.
Nothing says that in a role playing game that everyone must be a optimized combat machine, unless your idea of role is playing a class and not a character.

Funny how you focus on combat yet a +2 Cha +1 wis character is going to be played for social. If you want to make a +2 bonus on a class that supports your abilities being "an optimized machine" then I guess you are right. Not everyone needs to be an optimized combat machine, some people will be optimized social machines and others will be optimized exploration machines.

I also disagree that putting a +2 in your primary stat is somehow "an optimized machine". We aren't talking about some esoteric combination of abilities that a new player will never see on their first play., We are talking about "Oh, everything I do is based on Charisma? I should boost that" Which is about as vanilla as it gets in terms of optimization, but you can't denigrate people for that, so you hype it up.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Playing a +2 STR race or+1 STR subrace with a STR class is not playing an "optimized combat machine".
It's common sense. The game recommend this to you.

And since both point buy AND array only give you a 15, with those options you can't get a 16 or higher without matching race and class. And you are stuck that way until level 4.or 8.

I had this problem doing a one shot. I DMed and offered a stack of premades. All 6 players picked the race/class ability matches, noobs and vets alike. Because if:

1. you don't roll
2. you don't match your racial ability scores with you class primary score

You are stuck with low scores until level 4. And STR 14 dwarf cleric neither looks strong nor plays as strong. And I think that's the other part. The game stealthily assumes a 16 in your class primary or powergaming 2 14s. The premades in the Starter Set have 16s. The example dwarf in the PHB has a 17. And some of the DMG math runs on a +3 bonus.

Exactly, but people will never let you live done knowledge of basic math and the games assumptions. They will argue us into the ground that we are somehow slavering over any tiny advantage and care nothing for story and yadda yadda yadda and they declare to us that "true gamers" don't care about numbers.

I don't think we've ever had a thread on this subject where it didn't happen, but I'm exhausted of it by this point, so I expect the thread will die soon.

 

[Maxperson]

But the 500 pound guy should not automatically be able to aim better.
Now we run into the problem that both things rely on the same stat.
You may now counter that the 500 pund guy might be able to overcome armor by brute force.

Yes. That is an effective counter to your argument.

Then I counter that he might be twice as inefficient against the unarmored guy.

This is not a counter. Unlike actually being able to punch through armor when stronger, a "might" is just supposition. I mean, I could "counter" that the weak guy is four times as inefficient against armored guys. See how that's not really a counter?

The question is: do you want that kind of granularity? Yes? Go to 3.x with touch AC and size penalties and so on.

I don't need to. 5e already has enough. You go to 3e.

 

[Maxperson]

No. It is like building a tower half with lego and half with wooden bricks. It might work, but it is instable.

The only problem is that the facts don't bear out your complaint here. It has worked wonderfully for decades. Your personal declaration of a "mess" doesn't change that.

 

[Maxperson]

So? That's not an argument against mine. The point is that those features are beneficial to your character even without having high DEX, and exist without just straight-up adding a bonus to your Dexterity score. The point is what the features accomplish, not who plays them.

And this is not a counter argument against mine. I'm not arguing that these features would not be beneficial for people with a low dex. I'm saying it would be nonsensical for them to exist for low dex people. Low dex people are sloooooow, not evasion monsters.

 

[nevin]

To quote Dash "If everyone is special then no one is special" I'd agree with the assesment that 3.0 version was a mess. Just look at Drow vs any other race.
Making Races different makes them seem different. If everyone is the same then why do we have races? RPG's work by letting people leave our real world and pretend to be somewhere different. If every new "different" world has to meet the same rules are they really different? Will there be a draw to go there?

Current trends on races in RPG's seem to have two wildly different conflicting views. One everyone has to be able to do whatever they want. Two we are placing a set of hard cultural norms that all cultures and players have to follow so no one is offended. It's like mixing All the flavors of icecream in a blender and expecting to be able to control which flavor you taste with each spoon. The flavors are all gone instead you've take the weird crazy assortment of 99 flavors and created one that everyone has to eat.