D&D 5E Wow! No more subraces. The Players Handbook races reformat to the new race format going forward.

[Maxperson]

Yes. That's what's nice about floating ASIs, because it allows that one halfling PC to be unusually strong, or it allows that one goliath PC to be unusually weak. Or it allows them both to have whatever Strength they want, but the halfling is particularly charismatic while the goliath is particularly smart.

Rolls or stat placement also do that....................without throwing racial bonuses under the bus.

No. Why would you think that? But that lifting and dragging things is improved more by the Powerful Build than by Strength. In one game I'm in, my firbolg warlock carts stuff around. They're basically the party's pack mule at this point, even though there are several other PCs that have higher significantly Strength scores. Why? Because my firbolg has Powerful Build and none of the others do, which makes them better at lifting and dragging heavy things anyone else in the party. Even if I had been allowed by RAW to stick that +1 in any other stat than Strength, my warlock would still be better at lifting and dragging.

I said that because you said that strength was just to hit and damage. Lifting and dragging relies on the strength score.

Glad you agree. Because this (combined with the fact that Strength and Dex are equal when it comes to attacks) means that the +2 Strength racial ASI is pretty pointless.

Your conclusion is faulty. My desire for racial bonuses has absolutely nothing to do with to hit and damage. Nothing.

And, of course, ASIs aren't just limited to physical abilities, but mental ones as well, and do we really need to say that one race is smarter or wiser or more charismatic than another?

There's no good reason not to.

So basically, as long as the imbalance is in a way that you like, it's OK? Because otherwise that sentence makes no sense.

No, that's not true. They over balanced and over bounded the game. Imbalance is what makes the game fun. They could have made it more fun by relaxing their balance quest just a bit. After 3e they seem to have gone too far in the other direction.

 

[Maxperson]

So, there is only one way to be strong, but there are two ways to be slow. Convenient for your argument.

Truth hurts sometimes. Go roll initiative 1000 times for a person with a 6 dex and one with a 20. You tell me who goes first the majority of the time and which one is slower.

 

[Maxperson]

Really? Because it seems to me that you were trying to say that all those elves existed because they were popular

That's exactly why they exist. The ASI variance isn't the reason for their existence, it's due to wanting to make the popular subraces unique. If needing a bunch of different ASIs for the various races was the reason for the elves to have different bonuses, every other race would also have a half dozen or more subraces. They don't, because ASIs aren't a reason for the existence of the elven subraces.

 

[Azzy]

♪♪ It's a lost cause after all ♪♪

 

[Chaosmancer]

Truth hurts sometimes. Go roll initiat+ive 1000 times for a person with a 6 dex and one with a 20. You tell me who goes first the majority of the time and which one is slower.

So, three ways to be slow. One way to be strong. Because if that person with the 6 dex has Alert and tactical Wit with a INT of , then they will be rolling at a +8 to the Dex 20's +5. Making them slower, faster and the same speed all at the same time.

Why is it we can't have features that allow someone to be strong without relying on strength again? Because it was nonsensical to be strong one way and not strong another way? And yet now we have ways to dodge (which is being fast), ways to go first in combat (ways to be fast) and ways to move around the battlefield (literal definition of speed is distance/time, and is therefore a way to be fast) and you have argued FOR all three of these methods.

Seems rather nonsensical to me.

That's exactly why they exist. The ASI variance isn't the reason for their existence, it's due to wanting to make the popular subraces unique. If needing a bunch of different ASIs for the various races was the reason for the elves to have different bonuses, every other race would also have a half dozen or more subraces. They don't, because ASIs aren't a reason for the existence of the elven subraces.

Why did they need to be unique? They were elves. If elves are popular then why do we need slightly different elves if not to fill slightly different roles?

And you forget, there WERE other types of dwarves and halflings and ect that had different ASIs to make them useful for other classes. Because the big four always get more options.

 

[Maxperson]

So, three ways to be slow. One way to be strong. Because if that person with the 6 dex has Alert and tactical Wit with a INT of , then they will be rolling at a +8 to the Dex 20's +5. Making them slower, faster and the same speed all at the same time.

If you add in feats, you have to also add them in to the other side to get a true gauge. So +8 vs. +13. Still slower.

Why did they need to be unique? They were elves. If elves are popular then why do we need slightly different elves if not to fill slightly different roles?

Already answered that twice.

And you forget, there WERE other types of dwarves and halflings and ect that had different ASIs to make them useful for other classes. Because the big four always get more options.

What part of they didn't make enough of them to have stat bonuses for each stat are you not getting? Or are you just twisting my arguments again?

 

[Faolyn]

Rolls or stat placement also do that....................without throwing racial bonuses under the bus.

So? You do know that you can put that +2/+1 in any stat you want, right? That means that you can always make all goliaths you roll up put a +2 into Strength.

I said that because you said that strength was just to hit and damage. Lifting and dragging relies on the strength score.

Since a lot of groups don't care about encumbrance, Strength primarily about attacks and damage.

Your conclusion is faulty. My desire for racial bonuses has absolutely nothing to do with to hit and damage. Nothing.

So why are they so important?

If you're going to say "to differentiate the races," I strongly disagree. They're already strongly differentiated through racial traits, and saying that they also have to have specific stat bonuses doesn't actually help to differentiate them any more. It just creates an expectation about "correct" race/class combos, which is boring.

There's no good reason not to.

So what's a good reason to have races with bonuses to various mental stats? Because again, higher ASIs doesn't actually make the races different from each other.

No, that's not true. They over balanced and over bounded the game. Imbalance is what makes the game fun. They could have made it more fun by relaxing their balance quest just a bit. After 3e they seem to have gone too far in the other direction.

So if you're concerned about fun, why are you insisting that races have to have specific racial stat bonuses? It would be more fun for more people if players got to put the +2/+1 wherever they want them to rather than be forced to put them in a specific stat.

 

[Maxperson]

So? You do know that you can put that +2/+1 in any stat you want, right? That means that you can always make all goliaths you roll up put a +2 into Strength.

This is entirely irrelevant to my argument which is about the races as a whole, not about a small handful of PCs who are also a part of that race.

Since a lot of groups don't care about encumbrance, Strength primarily about attacks and damage.

I don't really care about encumbrance. That's not what I'm talking about when I speak of lifting and dragging. Heavy objects, bodies, and much more. Things get lifted and dragged fairly often.

If you're going to say "to differentiate the races," I strongly disagree. They're already strongly differentiated through racial traits, and saying that they also have to have specific stat bonuses doesn't actually help to differentiate them any more. It just creates an expectation about "correct" race/class combos, which is boring.

It's important that the stats match the fluff and other mechanics. If you represent a race as being very strong, it needs a strength bonus in addition to any other mechanics or there is a disconnect. Same with the rest of the stats.

So what's a good reason to have races with bonuses to various mental stats? Because again, higher ASIs doesn't actually make the races different from each other.

To match the lore and other mechanics so as to avoid disconnects caused by being smart and not smart at the same time, weak and strong at the same time, fast and slow at the same time, and so on.

So if you're concerned about fun, why are you insisting that races have to have specific racial stat bonuses? It would be more fun for more people if players got to put the +2/+1 wherever they want them to rather than be forced to put them in a specific stat.

Did you not see my compromise where everyone gets what they want?

 

[Faolyn]

This is entirely irrelevant to my argument which is about the races as a whole, not about a small handful of PCs who are also a part of that race.

Races as a whole are up to the DM, who can give them whatever stats they want. Or just use the NPC stats in the back of the book, which have no racial modifications at all, meaning every goliath commoner is exactly as strong as every halfling commoner anyway.

PCs are individuals, not entire races.

It's important that the stats match the fluff and other mechanics. If you represent a race as being very strong, it needs a strength bonus in addition to any other mechanics or there is a disconnect. Same with the rest of the stats.

Why is it important? Why is it so important that every player have stats that match the fluff and other mechanics, even if they don't want their PC to have that high stat? And why is it so important that every member of a race be exactly the same?

To match the lore and other mechanics so as to avoid disconnects caused by being smart and not smart at the same time, weak and strong at the same time, fast and slow at the same time, and so on.

I see no disconnect. Goliaths are strong because they get Powerful Build. A goliath with 8 Strength still has Powerful Build and can easily carry 240 pounds and lift or drag double that. That's really strong. They're just not necessarily good in a fight.

Did you not see my compromise where everyone gets what they want?

No, I didn't see a compromise. I saw you insisting on a racial ASI and trying to pretend that allowing a floating bonus is a compromise, even though that disregards what many people have been saying. We don't always want to have strong goliaths and dexterous halflings.

Here's a compromise: take the floating ASI and put them in the "correct" racial stats. Then you get what you want. And I can put the bonus into whatever stat I want them to be in. Then I get what I want.

 

[Maxperson]

PCs are individuals, not entire races.

Individuals of that race, yes. For them to get separate stat bonuses, they would need to be a separate race. Otherwise they would get what the race gets.

Why is it important? Why is it so important that every player have stats that match the fluff and other mechanics, even if they don't want their PC to have that high stat? And why is it so important that every member of a race be exactly the same?

Because consistency and what makes sense matters. If you like nonsense, have at it. A lot of people are okay with nonsensical things. I'm not.

No, I didn't see a compromise. I saw you insisting on a racial ASI and trying to pretend that allowing a floating bonus is a compromise, even though that disregards what many people have been saying. We don't always want to have strong goliaths and dexterous halflings.

I've said it before and again in this thread not to long ago that I'm okay with a floating +2. Give elves +2 dex and a floating +2. Gives dwarves their +2 con bonus and a floating +2. It's not hard to make it so that both sides get what they want. No need to screw over one side or the other.

Here's a compromise: take the floating ASI and put them in the "correct" racial stats. Then you get what you want. And I can put the bonus into whatever stat I want them to be in. Then I get what I want.

That's not a compromise. That's you getting what you want and my side getting screwed over.