D&D General Lorraine Williams: Is it Time for a Reevaluation?

[darjr]

I cried tears of sorrow and loss when I read that Gary died. I read it here at this very site, at this very desk, at this very window. This site put up a special tribute to Gary. I have volunteered many late night hours of technical emergency work to this site in part because of his posts that live here.

But I also know he was a human being.

Gary and Lorraine were "partners" in the beginning, he brought her on board specifically to run the business side so he could concentrate more on the creative. Those of you that wonder about what that partnership could have been like wonder no more, you have seen it.

Gary was a good business man, Lorraine was also good at business. Together they saved TSR. Also I believe it was the second time Gary had stepped back in to save TSR. Good being on a spectrum, Gary did have to save the business at least once.

Businesses fail all the time, some great ones. Sometimes the seeds of success grow the fuel of the pyre of destruction. The odds were always against TSR as they are for most businesses.

Gary and Lorraine both made mistakes in my opinion, some of them colossal and seemingly obvious in hindsight, some of them might have been the best option among many bad ones. And yes I do think the Flash Gordon stuff was at best problematic.

I also believe, unfortunately largely in hindsight, that Lorraine was painted with a misoginistic brush. But I also know that she is responsible for the state of TSR at its end.

So yea, I think there is a lot of undue hate for her. I also still hold her responsible for TSR. She was the president and in charge.

Finally to complicate things. Flint Dille is Lorraine Williams brother. From what I understand him and Gary became friends before they worked together and it was he that suggested Lorraine to Gary for running TSR. I believe he remained friends with Gary, he has even been an Honored Guest at GaryCon. Honored Guests (So Far) - GaryCon

Currently I think he's part of Niantic games the creators of Pokemon Go.

Wikiwand - Flint Dille

Flint Dille is an American screenwriter, game designer and novelist. He is best known for his animated work on Transformers, G.I. Joe, An American Tail: Fievel Goes West, and his game-writing, The Chronicles of Riddick: Escape from Butcher Bay, and Dead to Rights, as well as a non-fiction book...

www.wikiwand.com

 

[LordEntrails]

The thing is that she did NOT get unfair treatment according to some.

Please provide sources. The only sources for her hatred so far posted here is of dubious quality, as part of a post from a former TSR employee who stated the purpose of his post was to make fun of Lorraine and who's own story indicates he showed distaste for her before she ever showed such (if ever) to him.

There's a REASON she has the reputation...and ignoring it and telling all those who lived through it and got attacked that it's just like "their opinion" is villanizing everyone ELSE to try to make it that how she has been treated since is unfair.

AGAIN, please PROVIDE SUPPORT for your views. So far, all you have done is to continue spreading gossip and using it to supprt your views.

Let's have someone (we will call them suitor L) sue you and try to remove your livelihood and then sue your friends and C&D them and see how you feel when someone says that individual who attacked you was treated unfairly and it was all due to sexism.

Sounds like you have some first or second hand experience that has colored your views. Perhaps is you shared your personal experiences, we might understand, and perhaps even agree with your otherwise unsupported views.

HINT: It has NOTHING to do with sexism for the most part and EVERYTHING to do with the actions she took.

HINT; such statement only sere to show you are intolerant of considering any view that you have not previously already held.

instead of actually LOOKING at these things, it's been blatantly ignored in favor of trying to refute any negative experiences anyone has had with her.

Uh no. None of the good Lorraine did for TSR and the hobby are in dispute. That's why everyone is ignoring them. They are accepted and we are generally all in agreement about them. Therefore their is nothing to discuss in this regard.

Thus far the evaluation is basically saying as follows from what I've read...

Yes, your evaluation is WRONG.

This isn't re-evaluating as much as attacking those who may have legitimate reasons to feel the way they do.

WRONG again. We are all willing, and many have exhibited, to re-evaluate our views on Lorraine. You are the one who continuously refused to re-evaluate your views on her, AND, when asked to explain your views you REFUSE to provide anything but SLANDEROUS GOSSIP.

You don't have to re-evaluate your views on Lorraine, but THAT is the premise of THIS THREAD. So don't be surprised if people challenge your intransigence and ask you to SUPPORT YOUR VIEWS with FACTS.

 

[Zardnaar]

Please provide sources. The only sources for her hatred so far posted here is of dubious quality, as part of a post from a former TSR employee who stated the purpose of his post was to make fun of Lorraine and who's own story indicates he showed distaste for her before she ever showed such (if ever) to him.

AGAIN, please PROVIDE SUPPORT for your views. So far, all you have done is to continue spreading gossip and using it to supprt your views.

Sounds like you have some first or second hand experience that has colored your views. Perhaps is you shared your personal experiences, we might understand, and perhaps even agree with your otherwise unsupported views.

HINT; such statement only sere to show you are intolerant of considering any view that you have not previously already held.

Uh no. None of the good Lorraine did for TSR and the hobby are in dispute. That's why everyone is ignoring them. They are accepted and we are generally all in agreement about them. Therefore their is nothing to discuss in this regard.

Yes, your evaluation is WRONG.

WRONG again. We are all willing, and many have exhibited, to re-evaluate our views on Lorraine. You are the one who continuously refused to re-evaluate your views on her, AND, when asked to explain your views you REFUSE to provide anything but SLANDEROUS GOSSIP.

You don't have to re-evaluate your views on Lorraine, but THAT is the premise of THIS THREAD. So don't be surprised if people challenge your intransigence and ask you to SUPPORT YOUR VIEWS with FACTS.

Counter argument also applies same standards to you.

Lorraine has never really disclosed her side of the story so everything for or against here is essentially gossip or he said/she said. Except she's not really saying anything.

The broad facts aren't really in dispute. Outside Gary and his ardent supporters I don't think to many people hate her.

And with Gary that attitude is understandable both with her take over and attempt to destroy his livelihood post TSR.

 

[LordEntrails]

Counter argument also applies same standards to you.

Agreed.

And hence why in this thread I have posted the relevant quotes and why I see such biases being self declared in those posts. If you would like me to quote myself again for your ease, I will be happy to do so.

 

[Zardnaar]

Agreed.

And hence why in this thread I have posted the relevant quotes and why I see such biases being self declared in those posts. If you would like me to quote myself again for your ease, I will be happy to do so.

Na I don't nit pick. Unless you're making some fairly absurd claims I don't bother asking for citations on a forum.

 

[Ogre Mage]

Lorraine has never really disclosed her side of the story so everything for or against here is essentially gossip or he said/she said. Except she's not really saying anything.

The fact she has remained silent for 20+ years is an interesting point. Perhaps she felt so ashamed about the TSR ship going down on her watch and being forced to sell to TSR's biggest competitor (WoTC) that she wanted to bury everything that happened. The past is too painful to dredge up.

Or maybe she didn't give a $h*t about TSR's destruction. She took her money and ran. I've read about corporate types like that.

 

[Sacrosanct]

It’s a shame these sorts of things always devolve into with us or against us type of things. I keep repeating this for a reason. We can celebrate Gary for all the good he did while acknowledging the bad things too. The only issue people are taking is to point out the double standards Lorraine suffers from. That doesn’t mean people are out to get Gary. He was a human. I bet if all of our histories and actions were put out on public display, most of us would have said or done things in the past that were bad. And if many of us found sudden fame and money, our business decisions might not be the best in the world because many of us aren’t experts in running a multimillion corporation.

No, this isn’t meant to tear down Gary. It’s only meant to illustrate how Lorraine might not have gotten a fair shake for a number of reasons when compared to Gary and his leadership. I have to credit @GreyLord for being transparent at least. The only advise I’d give is that by your own admission you’re on team Gary, and you seem to be adamant to refuse to see things in a more objective light. More people hating Lorraine doesn’t prove she’s worse, that only proves she was treated disparately when you actually look at each’s offenses when you put them on paper. So take a step back and look at what you’ve posted, and then look at what’s been proven of each, not rumors or hearsay. They are both ugly, sure. But ask why one has been vilified way more than the other when you look at that provable list.

This only proves the danger in idolizing anyone.

 

[Sacrosanct]

The fact she has remained silent for 20+ years is an interesting point. Perhaps she felt so ashamed about the TSR ship going down on her watch and being forced to sell to TSR's biggest competitor (WoTC) that she wanted to bury everything that happened. The past is too painful to dredge up.

Or maybe she didn't give a $h*t about TSR's destruction. She took her money and ran. I've read about corporate types like that.

Or maybe she saw how everyone blamed her irrationally while giving free passes to those who laid the foundation of ineptitude, and thought “why bother if they will just blame me anyway.”

Also, WoTC wasn’t a competitor in 1997. Different product altogether.

 

[Ogre Mage]

Or maybe she saw how everyone blamed her irrationally while giving free passes to those who laid the foundation of ineptitude, and thought “why bother if they will just blame me anyway.”

Also, WoTC wasn’t a competitor in 1997. Different product altogether.

Maybe not a direct competitor for TTRPGs, but there was definitely competition. There was a reason why TSR released its Spellfire CCG in the 1990s. I submit this was an attempt to compete with Magic The Gathering. Of course, Spellfire (and Dragon Dice) were commercial failures and factors in TSR's demise.

 

[Zardnaar]

It’s a shame these sorts of things always devolve into with us or against us type of things. I keep repeating this for a reason. We can celebrate Gary for all the good he did while acknowledging the bad things too. The only issue people are taking is to point out the double standards Lorraine suffers from. That doesn’t mean people are out to get Gary. He was a human. I bet if all of our histories and actions were put out on public display, most of us would have said or done things in the past that were bad. And if many of us found sudden fame and money, our business decisions might not be the best in the world because many of us aren’t experts in running a multimillion corporation.

No, this isn’t meant to tear down Gary. It’s only meant to illustrate how Lorraine might not have gotten a fair shake for a number of reasons when compared to Gary and his leadership. I have to credit @GreyLord for being transparent at least. The only advise I’d give is that by your own admission you’re on team Gary, and you seem to be adamant to refuse to see things in a more objective light. More people hating Lorraine doesn’t prove she’s worse, that only proves she was treated disparately when you actually look at each’s offenses when you put them on paper. So take a step back and look at what you’ve posted, and then look at what’s been proven of each, not rumors or hearsay. They are both ugly, sure. But ask why one has been vilified way more than the other when you look at that provable list.

This only proves the danger in idolizing anyone.

Gary gets a free pass up to a point. He was t in the driver's seat like Lorraine was.

Once he took the money from the Blumes he didn't have that much power.

He came back from Hollywood and TSR was going down the gurgler.

He wasn't responsible for TSRs worst financial decisions as he wasn't there both times.

He inherited a crap situation and was out in a year or so.

Blumes and Lorraine were in the driver's seat.

You can pin Gary's adventures, game design and Hollywood adventures on him though.

Or maybe his handling of the situation once he got back but TSR was already screwed by then.