D&D 5E FeeFiFoFum *splat* goes the giants

[Ancalagon]

I almost forgot the math. Based on the DMG, this was a 15 375 xp equivalent encounter, or a deadly encounter for level 11 characters.

 

[Stalker0]

I almost forgot the math. Based on the DMG, this was a 15 375 xp equivalent encounter, or a deadly encounter for level 11 characters.

Looks like it was x2.26 deadly with the 4 of your. I'd say the real force multiplier was the counter-spell, as effectively one of their guys shut down one of yours....and then your fighting a lot of guys with just 2 people.

Edit: Actually by my math it was 14,750 xp.

8 CR2s = 8 * 450 = 3600
1 CR6 = 2300

Total: 5900

9 Monsters vs 4 PCs = x2.5 multiplier.

5900 x 2.5 = 14,750.

That's x2.17 deadly for the 4 PCs.

 

[Ancalagon]

Looks like it was x2.26 deadly with the 4 of your. I'd say the real force multiplier was the counter-spell, as effectively one of their guys shut down one of yours....and then your fighting a lot of guys with just 2 people.

the fight was LONG - an entire 3 hour session. My character lost 2 turns because of the hypnotic pattern. He then spent 3 turns dealing a lot of damage, but with the dragon breath, the barbarians... one more round of barbarian attacks brought him down .

The reckless attack made them vulnerable, but they had an AC of 15, and the sharpshooting ranger was not able to hit reliably.

The fighting retreat lasted 3 more round where our allies suddenly decided that sheesh, maybe they should do something. Amusingly, the giant weasel my character had summoned survived the fight, and inflicted over 40 points of damage. The barbarians let us go because said allies killed 3 of them and the dragon didn't want to risk a fight.

Edit: the paladin not being there was also a huge factor. He hits hard, he boosts saves... it would have made a tremendous difference I think.

 

[ad_hoc]

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[ad_hoc]

Some of you may be interested in this play report.

The group (still level 7, the psi warrior, the ranger, the monk and the rogue-sorcerer) faced off against 6 urthgart barbarian leaders (CR2), 1 veteran (CR 2), 1 uthgart shaman (CR 2) and one young white adult dragon (CR 6). We did not have time to buff, but both the ranger (summon beast spirit) and the fighter (bag of tricks) had one ally on the field.

It was a debacle. We had a (fairly ineffective) clerical support, which revivified twice during the battle. Despite this, both the ranger and the fighter died (as in failed death saves, no more 3rd level slots left).

A key factor was that our mage was completely outplayed by the enemy mage. He started, winning initiative, by fireballing the gang of barbarian... to have his spell counter-spelled. The barbarians then surged forth, and, attacking recklessly twice a round, surrounded the monk (who was in front for some reason) and reduced him to 14 hp. Then the shaman cast hypnotic pattern, with only the monk (not in the area) and the rogue sorcerer not being affected. THe shaman then moved out of sight so the concentration could not easily be broken.

Our sorcerer then hypnotic patterned the barbarian horde, thinking that the elven monk would make his save (he did). All but one barbarian failed their save... and said barbarian was then ordered by the dragon (who was staying back for now) to attack the sorcerer. Because the sorcerer's first level was in rogue, he wasn't proficient in con save, and with reckless attack, took a hit, failed his save...

At this point the monk punched both the ranger and the fighter to wake them up (ouch) and pulled back. The sorcerer tried fireballing again, but got countered again....

So the Young White Dragon wasn't fighting?

The Uthgardt Shaman from the book has Cleric spells so we're in homemade creatures territory.

Berserkers are CR 2 but only have 1 attack. They do have 67 hp each though which is a lot of HP to go through. Seems like there was some changing on this part too.

If the Monk was surrounded that's 12 attacks and with Advantage against AC 16 they're going to hit a lot. Each attack doing 9 pts of damage if from a Great Axe and a 7th level Monk having around 50 hp.

They did 36 damage which means only 4 of their 12 attacks hit even though they all had advantage.

If the Barbarians were PCs the one saving from the Hypnotic Pattern would wake up the rest. It's a reasonable thing for the DM to have them attack instead but it's still a choice to make the battle easier.

the fight was LONG - an entire 3 hour session. My character lost 2 turns because of the hypnotic pattern. He then spent 3 turns dealing a lot of damage, but with the dragon breath, the barbarians... one more round of barbarian attacks brought him down .

The reckless attack made them vulnerable, but they had an AC of 15, and the sharpshooting ranger was not able to hit reliably.

The fighting retreat lasted 3 more round where our allies suddenly decided that sheesh, maybe they should do something. Amusingly, the giant weasel my character had summoned survived the fight, and inflicted over 40 points of damage. The barbarians let us go because said allies killed 3 of them and the dragon didn't want to risk a fight.

Edit: the paladin not being there was also a huge factor. He hits hard, he boosts saves... it would have made a tremendous difference I think.

And the party had allies? Oh wait I just realized you didn't have a Cleric but you had a Cleric casting spells for you including Revivify so it wasn't just 4 PCs in the fight the entire time.

You've also got magic items which are not accounted for in encounter building guidelines.

The Ranger loses Concentration on the Summon Beast when Incapacitated by Hypnotic Pattern.

That sounds far too long for me. This doesn't really add up to me. Sounds like some more important details are left out.

 

[Lyxen]

I almost forgot the math. Based on the DMG, this was a 15 375 xp equivalent encounter, or a deadly encounter for level 11 characters.

And here you see why a very small parameter can completely change an encounter, and why it's unreasonable to expect an encounter calculator to give exact results. It all hang upon counterspell being effective or not, because a single fireball going off, especially at start, would have made a huge difference. It's not even a question of level, buffs, stats, feats, magic items, it's a question of synergy between the various parties and with the environment and in this case, the complete shutdown of one party major capability by just one member of the opposing party when action economy is in favor of the monsters.

And once more, it's a question of a DM's experience, Hill Giants are weak for their CRs especially if they start at range, whereas counterspell can be extremely deadly (and is one of the most debated spells of the arsenal).

But thanks for sharing the experience, I hope that DMs can learn from this and be careful about deadly encounters when not really mastering the subtleties of details in encounter building. This is why, although it's often quoted extremely badly, the DMG uses the "standard" of medium to hard encounters to explain the adventuring days. With these kind of encounters, slip ups like the above don't cause a TPK, but it's true that if challenge is what the group is after, you need more of them so that resource management over is what you are being challenged against, not raw power for one encounter (which is very unfair to some classes and combinations anyway).

 

[ad_hoc]

And here you see why a very small parameter can completely change an encounter, and why it's unreasonable to expect an encounter calculator to give exact results. It all hang upon counterspell being effective or not, because a single fireball going off, especially at start, would have made a huge difference. It's not even a question of level, buffs, stats, feats, magic items, it's a question of synergy between the various parties and with the environment and in this case, the complete shutdown of one party major capability by just one member of the opposing party when action economy is in favor of the monsters.

And once more, it's a question of a DM's experience, Hill Giants are weak for their CRs especially if they start at range, whereas counterspell can be extremely deadly (and is one of the most debated spells of the arsenal).

But thanks for sharing the experience, I hope that DMs can learn from this and be careful about deadly encounters when not really mastering the subtleties of details in encounter building. This is why, although it's often quoted extremely badly, the DMG uses the "standard" of medium to hard encounters to explain the adventuring days. With these kind of encounters, slip ups like the above don't cause a TPK, but it's true that if challenge is what the group is after, you need more of them so that resource management over is what you are being challenged against, not raw power for one encounter (which is very unfair to some classes and combinations anyway).

Well CR 2 Berserkers have 67 HP so the Fireball would have helped but wouldn't have actually stopped them.

The OP says they have 2 attacks each but only 4 out of 12 attacks hit with advantage so it sounds like they had only 1 attack each and 4 out of 6 attacks hit.

Sounds like the DM altered the Shaman to be a Mage with Counterspell and then after the fight started going against them engineered it in such a way as to keep the party alive.

The White Dragon flying overhead would have been a quick TPK along with all the Barbarians.

But then there are also all the allies which the OP sort of references but doesn't give details about except for multiple Revivifies. Then magic items. Then not losing Concentration on spells.

So much to account for beyond that this was a x2 deadly encounter. Not really. I am glad that the OP provided more details this time. It just shows how things can be so different than what is claimed on the surface.

 

[Ancalagon]

I don't own the books so I didn't know if the foes had been modified. The barbarians having 2 attacks instead of one doesn't surprised me - this is an inexperienced GM who likes doing "over the top" things. I think he has a lot of potential, and the game is fun, but some rough edges Doubling the attacks of the barbarian undoubtedly would increase their CR.

The ranger not loosing concentration on his summoned creature spell is an oversight I think. He took damage and lost it fairly quickly after that, so it's not like we don't monitor concentration, an honest mistakes (mistakes WILL BE MADE during games, it's part of life).

The dragon used its breath weapon twice on the party, it was hindered because it didn't want to hit his barbarian allies. The fighter had boots of the winterland so the damage wasn't too bad, and the ranger had absorb element. The monk and sorcerer probably went down but were brought back by the NPC cleric using mass healing word.

The dragon stood back a bit initially, then breathed, then attacked the sorcerer, who was able to survive these attacks (somewhat) thanks to light armor + dex + shield + protection from the psi warrior.

The OP says they have 2 attacks each but only 4 out of 12 attacks hit with advantage so it sounds like they had only 1 attack each and 4 out of 6 attacks hit.

Ok, you have to have a little faith in other members. Do you want me to post screen capture of the roll20 rolls or something? They had 2 attacks each, 6 attacks landed, the monk took 51 pts of damage, which was reduced to 44 damage by the psi warrior's protective field. I must admit I'm not 100% sure on the exact value of how many HP the monk had after that onslaught, but it was "standing but not much".

 

[Mort]

Yeah, the latest encounter really seems to confirm that the DM likes to overclock his battles and then provide help so the PCs don't die - which can backfire spectacularly if he's otherwise playing it straight (as it seems he is)!

Here's a question - Since the sorcerer was a 2nd level rogue did he try to (bonus action) hide then cast? It's a bit controversial and depends on environment/terrain and heavily on the DM, but under the right circumstances - that could have prevented further counterspells (nothing to be done about the 1st one, but the ones after that could have possibly been avoided).

 

[Ancalagon]

Yeah, the latest encounter really seems to confirm that the DM likes to overclock his battles and then provide help so the PCs don't die - which can backfire spectacularly if he's otherwise playing it straight (as it seems he is)!

Here's a question - Since the sorcerer was a 2nd level rogue did he try to (bonus action) hide then cast? It's a bit controversial and depends on environment/terrain and heavily on the DM, but under the right circumstances - that could have prevented further counterspells (nothing to be done about the 1st one, but the ones after that could possibly been avoided)?

That could have worked, but we were in a very large, wide hallway with no good places to hide so no...

Incidentally, that first counterspell should NOT have worked, because of range issues, but no one caught it during the battle (again, mistakes)

At one point, the shaman, now riding the dragon, cast spiritual guardian. Had the dragon landed on top of us with that going it would have been disastrous... but the ranger broke her concentration with a ranged attack.