D&D 5E FeeFiFoFum *splat* goes the giants

[HammerMan]

If you are taking a pure fighter and putting everything only into fighting, including all your feats, yes, just as you would if you took a sorcerer and took only combat spells. Same principle, same effect.

Good for you. For me, it did not let me play anything else than extremely rigid archetypes while pushing a miniature across a grid. Some of the archetypes (Warlord, Swordmage) where really interesting, though.

First, it's not a flaw in itself, it's waaayyyy better than depriving everyone of spells, and second, battlemaster has no spells and is really cool, does almost everything a warlord could do in combat, and can be a commander of armies as well as in 4e.

OKay lets start with a 5e fighter... other then taking spells or magic items what feats or options give them social or exploration things?
battle master is what the base fighter should look like... give them those dice and option like the ones OUT of the PHB that add to skills, give them something like the jump extra far thing psywarriors get...

I still didn't use grids for most of 4e, 3e and late 2e used grids...

and yes it is 100% a flaw. Battlemaster is why closer to what I want, but is too little. There is 0 reason why you can't have non magic extortionary abilities

 

[Lyxen]

OKay lets start with a 5e fighter... other then taking spells or magic items what feats or options give them social or exploration things?

Feats, magic items, and especially roleplaying and prestige through adventures and connections. Remember that the DM does not only have the rules at his beck and call to balance the game and give spotlight to all players more or less equally. This is why I don't consider it impossible to play story-orientated in 4e, as most of that still applies (although magic items less so, they are again extremely combat orientated in general), it's just taking in an awful burden of rules and constraints that will not even see usage.

battle master is what the base fighter should look like... give them those dice and option like the ones OUT of the PHB that add to skills, give them something like the jump extra far thing psywarriors get...

On this, I agree with you, the battlemaster maneuvers should apply to all fighters, with further specialisation down the line. The thing is that the Eldritch Knight is a fine class, and I think they still wanted a very easy option to play, hence the Champion. and most other fighter archetypes are fine too, if you take the above into consideration.

I still didn't use grids for most of 4e, 3e and late 2e used grids...

I did not play late 2e (2e was awful rules-wise (but brilliant settings) and the black book were just totally unbalanced). 3e grids were fun at start, but they made them so mandatory and rigid in 4e that I really got the impression of playing fantasy chess.

I agree that you don't need grids for social even in 4e, as for exploration, it's a bit doubtful as, from memory, most of the powers that apply are framed in squares. But again, if it's to play gridless and not use the (mostly combat) powers, why saddle yourself with all that ?

Note that there is @pemerton's approach as well, which is very much story-orientated, and which is very 4e technical and very much about combat, but he apparently plays a lot by ear and by adjudication, again ignoring a non-negligible part of the 4e rules.

and yes it is 100% a flaw. Battlemaster is why closer to what I want, but is too little. There is 0 reason why you can't have non magic extortionary abilities

I'm not sure what you mean here, though. Honestly, it feels rather fine, and if you want to burn most of your superiority dices to use things like commander's strike (which I think is based on a 4e ability) and rally, it makes you a great leader.

I agree that having a few more abilities would be nice, but they certainly can be house ruled in. And they can (and should) stay very martial and explainable.

For me, the great fighters that I would like to emulate are the swordmasters of the Wheel of Time, and there is nothing extraordinary (in the sense supernatural) to what they do, they are just really, really cool for being so good at what they do.

 

[HammerMan]

For me, the great fighters that I would like to emulate are the swordmasters of the Wheel of Time, and there is nothing extraordinary (in the sense supernatural) to what they do, they are just really, really cool for being so good at what they do.

I will be honest (maybe loose some geek cred) I have never read wheel of time. my idea of extraordinary (as apposed to supernatural that in and of it self I don't discount as martial) is peak human +1.

let me explain, if I can find a person on tic tok (god I am old why do I have a tic tok) or youtube doing something that is 1 in a million being lucky and good.... I want fighters rogues (all heroes actually) to be able to do such, and maybe push beyond it.

Example out of my butt: the world record long jump is about 30ft (there are decimals I round up so about) I think if I make a 5e fighter that is athletic by mid level (I will say 7th level but I am not married to the level exactly) it might take a roll, but if it does it should be one the fighter can make reasonable (your mileage may vary on what is reasonable) and by (what i would call) high level of like 15th be able to do it easy... by epic boon territory should consider it a little hop.

Supernatural (but still martial) I think of Beowulf and Hercules (and comic book characters) There should be options for (not spells) warriors to do supernatural things (like you said this is a high fantasy game)

Examples out of my butt:
Batman dodges the auto hit omaga beams (in D&D a short rest/encounter or daily evasion that works on no save effects)
Berrick Dundarian cuts his hand and the blood bursts the sword on to fire that burns targets he hits without burning/melting his blade
Captain America, Winter Soldier, and Black Panther out run cars.
Now all three of these CAN be done with spells (shield elemental weapon and a mix of haste and expeditions retreat) so we know having the effects doesn't break the game, but if I want a hero that doesn't cast spells but is just 'that good' I can't.
Hercules changes the course of a river to clean out a stable... I don't know if I have a 1-1 spell for this but again, he was just 'that strong/that good'
Jamie Lannister issues a challenge and 5 guys charge him, with one swing he slices 3 of the five and within a few second the other two are down... in 4e come and get it worked real well to emulate that feat...5e not so much.
The Belmounts fight with whips that allow them to bind targets, trip targets, and even swing on them... if thorn whip (or what ever the druid cantrip is called) can make a 30ft melee attack that does d6's of damage and pulls 10ft, why can't a fighter or rouge (anyone really) have the choice to use a d6 whip that can pull 10ft?

 

[Ancalagon]

a fighter can rock at combat, can be fun to RP, but if you want to DO something in a social or exploration situation you need spells.

This is getting wildly off topic, and uh... very strange. How do YOU - not your PC, you the human being, deal with social or exploration situation, in real life?

I have next to no magic, and yet, somehow, I can still DO things in social or exploration settings...

 

[Mort]

Make no mistake I have played through 20th level in 5e even taking epic boons, and what I have found is what I found in 3e and 2e before... a fighter can rock at combat, can be fun to RP, but if you want to DO something in a social or exploration situation you need spells. ANything a fighter without spells can do at 20th level (Not counting hitting things or damaging things) comes from skills that anyone can have or creative role play that anyone can do... on the other hand even a 7th or 8th level spell caster can keep up in combat (for it's level) still have skills/rp but ALSO has a pile of cool social and exploration abilities...

This IS off topic - but it's interesting.

I think you'll find that you don't NEED spells, they just make social and exploration easier. The general argument is they make those tiers TOO easy. Tiny Hut, fly, even alarm and feather fall. Take true dangers of exploration and negate them for ex. But you don't NEED them.

As for social - similar, though 5e has clamped down on that HARD (almost all charm spells now leave the subject knowing he's been charmed). You're usually better off having a high CHA character do the social thing than go at it with spells.

Though Tasha's (I think) took some baby steps for the fighter - they can now take maneuvers that apply their superiority die to social skills for ex.

Point is - yes magic can help in those tiers, sometimes too much (especially if the DM isn't careful) but it's not strictly necessary by any means.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Jamie Lannister issues a challenge and 5 guys charge him, with one swing he slices 3 of the five and within a few second the other two are down... in 4e come and get it worked real well to emulate that feat...5e not so much.

Jamie does several things that could be 4e powers and he is far from the best swordsman. We can NOT make every fantasy swordsman easily in 5e, but we can come as close as you could in 2e or 1e (maybe 3e could do a bit better and 4e blows them all out of the water)

The Belmounts fight with whips that allow them to bind targets, trip targets, and even swing on them... if thorn whip (or what ever the druid cantrip is called) can make a 30ft melee attack that does d6's of damage and pulls 10ft, why can't a fighter or rouge (anyone really) have the choice to use a d6 whip that can pull 10ft?

I could argue some point but overall I agree with the basics… but please tell me you mean the anime not the game.



now that I wrote all this how did “we need to change encounter designs” to the front of an edition war to “redesign fighter” and can we spin this off?

 

[HammerMan]

I could argue some point but overall I agree with the basics… but please tell me you mean the anime not the game.



now that I wrote all this how did “we need to change encounter designs” to the front of an edition war to “redesign fighter” and can we spin this off?

yes the anime

and it happened the way all edition war derails start... someone said an old meme style wrong thing about someone's favorite edition and it spun out into "why that isn't true" and kept flowing... If people didn't say that 4e was just combat or that is was normal for DMs to just run it like a war game I swear I would only have half my post count.

 

[Lyxen]

Supernatural (but still martial) I think of Beowulf and Hercules (and comic book characters) There should be options for (not spells) warriors to do supernatural things (like you said this is a high fantasy game)

I have nothing against it, but with two "prerequisites" : at high level (15th as you mentioned, why not), and things which are actually martial, not healing people from "dying"....

Batman dodges the auto hit omaga beams (in D&D a short rest/encounter or daily evasion that works on no save effects)
Berrick Dundarian cuts his hand and the blood bursts the sword on to fire that burns targets he hits without burning/melting his blade
Captain America, Winter Soldier, and Black Panther out run cars.
Now all three of these CAN be done with spells (shield elemental weapon and a mix of haste and expeditions retreat) so we know having the effects doesn't break the game, but if I want a hero that doesn't cast spells but is just 'that good' I can't.
Hercules changes the course of a river to clean out a stable... I don't know if I have a 1-1 spell for this but again, he was just 'that strong/that good'
Jamie Lannister issues a challenge and 5 guys charge him, with one swing he slices 3 of the five and within a few second the other two are down... in 4e come and get it worked real well to emulate that feat...5e not so much.
The Belmounts fight with whips that allow them to bind targets, trip targets, and even swing on them... if thorn whip (or what ever the druid cantrip is called) can make a 30ft melee attack that does d6's of damage and pulls 10ft, why can't a fighter or rouge (anyone really) have the choice to use a d6 whip that can pull 10ft?

All of those are fine with me, no problem, all are high level for sure, and absolutely martial. It should not be that hard to add these maneuvers to the Blademaster's arsenal.

 

[HammerMan]

This is getting wildly off topic, and uh... very strange. How do YOU - not your PC, you the human being, deal with social or exploration situation, in real life?

I have next to no magic, and yet, somehow, I can still DO things in social or exploration settings...

me personally, it depends... 1) I don't explore. 2) if I know people I am okay in social things, but in social thing with people I don't know I keep super quite and try to leave as soon as possible... in both cases odds of me saying something that will put a shoe store in my mouth are pretty high. I have dump stat cha though.

 

[Ancalagon]

Some of you may be interested in this play report.

The group (still level 7, the psi warrior, the ranger, the monk and the rogue-sorcerer) faced off against 6 urthgart barbarian leaders (CR2), 1 veteran (CR 2), 1 uthgart shaman (CR 2) and one young white adult dragon (CR 6). We did not have time to buff, but both the ranger (summon beast spirit) and the fighter (bag of tricks) had one ally on the field.

It was a debacle. We had a (fairly ineffective) clerical support, which revivified twice during the battle. Despite this, both the ranger and the fighter died (as in failed death saves, no more 3rd level slots left).

A key factor was that our mage was completely outplayed by the enemy mage. He started, winning initiative, by fireballing the gang of barbarian... to have his spell counter-spelled. The barbarians then surged forth, and, attacking recklessly twice a round, surrounded the monk (who was in front for some reason) and reduced him to 14 hp. Then the shaman cast hypnotic pattern, with only the monk (not in the area) and the rogue sorcerer not being affected. THe shaman then moved out of sight so the concentration could not easily be broken.

Our sorcerer then hypnotic patterned the barbarian horde, thinking that the elven monk would make his save (he did). All but one barbarian failed their save... and said barbarian was then ordered by the dragon (who was staying back for now) to attack the sorcerer. Because the sorcerer's first level was in rogue, he wasn't proficient in con save, and with reckless attack, took a hit, failed his save...

At this point the monk punched both the ranger and the fighter to wake them up (ouch) and pulled back. The sorcerer tried fireballing again, but got countered again....