D&D 5E FeeFiFoFum *splat* goes the giants

[HammerMan]

so at level 2 a cleric can give bonuses to saves.... but I guess no one ever makes a save while exploreing... no poison no trap. no one ever makes a save in a social setting eaither...cause charm isn't a thing in D&D. (That is PHB only btw)

lets just look at some powers shall we
All-encompassing Nature is a 2nd-level druid free action utility power. It allows a Nature check to be made in place of an Arcana, Dungeoneering or Religion
I mean I can sure see why being better at knowing religon or how to construct a dungeon is really useful in most fights

Bardic Lore
Bard Utility 2
Using your magic to sharpen your memory, you recall an important piece of information that you picked up in a story or a song you heard in your travels.

Daily Effect: You use Arcana, Dungeoneering, History, Nature, or Religion to make a knowledge check, but instead of rolling a d20, resolve the check as if you had rolled a 20.
We always hear about bardic lore just being for combat... I mean who doesn't have a story about that beating a fight

Beguiling tongue Effect: "You gain a +5 power bonus to your next Bluff, Diplomacy, or Intimidation check during this encounter

I mean really that wont help in social encounters... it's just like extra damage right?

Bounding Leap
Effect: You make an Athletics check to jump with a +5 power bonus. You are considered to have a running start, and the distance of the jump isn't limited by your speed.

no one ever has to jump when exploreing either...I mean that is pretty much just combat when people jump... never to sneak, or to get in someplace

Hunters tune
Effect: Until the end of your next turn, the target gains a +5 power bonus to Stealth checks and doesn't take a penalty to Stealth checks for moving more than 2 squares or running.
Sustain minor: The effect persists if the target is within range.

I mean stealth is never part of COmbat is War... why would anyone want to help someone else be more stealthy in CAW, I can't come up with a situation

Eyes of the hawk
Effect: You make a Perception check with a +10 power bonus.

I mean nobody in a CaW player would want to be able to precive things better would they? I mean what advantage could that give anyone outside of rolling to hit and damage...

Perfect recall
Trigger: You would make an Intelligence check
Effect: You make a History check in place of the Intelligence check.

I guess nobody has ever made an Int check outside of combat either, cause having a bonus to remember things isn't good for exploration or social situations

Path of the Monkey
Prerequisite: You must have a simian beast companion Effect: Until the end of the encounter or until your beast companion is killed or becomes unconscious, you gain a climb speed equal to your speed, and a +4 power bonus on Acrobatics checks.

now why would traveling like a monkey help you in an exploration based game... I mean really.

 

[HammerMan]

lets look at a 2nd level fighter and a 2nd level rogue in 5e....

they are fast (cunning action and action surge) they have skills, the rogue is even better at skills then others (but remember skill don't count).

the rogue hit hard (sneak attack) and the fighter has a fighting style and can self heal 1/encounter.

seems pretty combat focused.

at 3rd level though both can become spell casters if they want those other options...cause caster supremacy.

 

[Ancalagon]

Yup. I brought that up.

For those who missed it: it's when the combat isn't about challenge, but about showing off your character. That could mean the cool thing this crazy build can do, or a narrative thing that ties to your story. Winning or losing is incidental to the point of the scene.

It's not war, or even a sport: it's just a show.

I too am new to the term, but thank you! That's indeed thought provoking.

I will note however that combat as sport is... kind of a show?

 

[jmartkdr2]

I too am new to the term, but thank you! That's indeed thought provoking.

I will note however that combat as sport is... kind of a show?

Combat as sport is much more a game - it's a puzzle you're trying to solve, a problem to work through via cleverness, and importantly: a challenge to be overcome. The possibility of loss (not likelihood, but possibility) is key to CaS.

 

[ad_hoc]

Are you sure about the latter ? Most of the ones I've met are CaS, I think...

Do they ever lose?

In sports you can lose.

 

[Lyxen]

so funny you ignore that other then skill rogues and fighters get 0 exploration and 0 social abilities...

You mean all these classes which have spells and cantrips that can be used socially and for exploration...

as for why we used 4e (and why I still like it in many ways better then 5e) is those powers you dislike, allow me to make a warlord (the class) who is a smart fighter instead of a strong one... and a charismatic one too...

Just put charisma on a Battlemaster (and maybe some feats) and you have something that works even better because it is really non-magical and does not look impossible to explain when trying to use powers that make no sense except if they are magical (like reviving a dying character.

Moreover, why do you need a warlord powers if you are playing without fights ?

I can take some skills some rituals and some utility and then be as useful as a cleric AND STILL NOT use magic...

The last part is a joke, after a big declaration about the fact that warlords are martial and don't use magic, they more or less conveniently forget to use magic as a concept in the rules, for once, and then create powers for the warlord which can only be explained magically.

Especially when reflavoring for a modern "Urban arcane" setting 4e works way better then any other D&D game.

This claim has absolutely zero basis in facts.

I see 4e 3e 2e 5e Basic alll being the exact same amount of each 'pillar' as they call it now...the thing is 4e does away with caster supremacy that every other edition has.

why wouldn't I use ANY RPG for role playing? it is in the name it is the RP part of RPG

Because you took the edition that was the heaviest technically and the more constraining, again not impossible, but harder to do than with more freeform games like BECMI, AD&D or 5e.

 

[Lyxen]

so at level 2 a cleric can give bonuses to saves.... but I guess no one ever makes a save while exploreing... no poison no trap. no one ever makes a save in a social setting eaither...cause charm isn't a thing in D&D. (That is PHB only btw)

Because all the charm in 4e are from combat abilities, I should not be too worried. But once more, out of 5 utilities powers (compared to scores of spells), all 5 are mostly combat and 2 could be used during exploration... Right.

lets just look at some powers shall we

Great, out of all the 4e PH and its hundreds of powers, you managed to find less than ten who are not combat orientated although some are still written for combat use. Amazing how non-combat that edition is...

Now please do the same exercise with the 5e PH and count how many spells and powers are designed for out of combat use. Can I bet that the ratio is at least 20 to one ?

lets look at a 2nd level fighter and a 2nd level rogue in 5e....
they are fast (cunning action and action surge) they have skills, the rogue is even better at skills then others (but remember skill don't count).
the rogue hit hard (sneak attack) and the fighter has a fighting style and can self heal 1/encounter.
seems pretty combat focused.

OK, and this out of how many archetypes ? Right...

at 3rd level though both can become spell casters if they want those other options...cause caster supremacy.

And then D&D is a high fantasy game, which means epic magic. And have you really played 5e at high level ? From experience, even fighters and rogues are not underpowered, in particular because of the nerfing of high level magic through concentration and reduced slots, but also because of items and situations in which magic works less well. Moreover, if you absolutely decide to play one of the very few completely magic-less classes, it's also because you enjoy them.

Balance is artificial anyway, I'd much rather have story-based balance that I can control and adjust than gamesystem-based enforced balanced that strangles my game.

 

[HammerMan]

Because all the charm in 4e are from combat abilities, I should not be too worried. But once more, out of 5 utilities powers (compared to scores of spells), all 5 are mostly combat and 2 could be used during exploration... Right.



Great, out of all the 4e PH and its hundreds of powers, you managed to find less than ten who are not combat orientated although some are still written for combat use. Amazing how non-combat that edition is...

Now please do the same exercise with the 5e PH and count how many spells and powers are designed for out of combat use. Can I bet that the ratio is at least 20 to one ?



OK, and this out of how many archetypes ? Right...



And then D&D is a high fantasy game, which means epic magic. And have you really played 5e at high level ? From experience, even fighters and rogues are not underpowered, in particular because of the nerfing of high level magic through concentration and reduced slots, but also because of items and situations in which magic works less well. Moreover, if you absolutely decide to play one of the very few completely magic-less classes, it's also because you enjoy them.

Balance is artificial anyway, I'd much rather have story-based balance that I can control and adjust than gamesystem-based enforced balanced that strangles my game.

4e fighter is NOT magic... it is extraordinary.

out of hundreds of powers... just like out of 100s of spells less then a 3rd of them are for things other then killing stuff.
there are just as many non combat things in 4e as any other edition (maybe MORE when you go pre 3e when skills where non weapon prof)

BTW i DID go through the 5e books, and the only way a fighter and rogue can impact on non combat is skill...making things up (both apply to every edition so what ever even break) or take spell casting.

You asked out of how many archtypes...I think you mean subclass, something wizards warlocks clerics and others have at 2nd level, but not fighter rogue barbarian ranger monk... so no no archtypes.

Make no mistake I have played through 20th level in 5e even taking epic boons, and what I have found is what I found in 3e and 2e before... a fighter can rock at combat, can be fun to RP, but if you want to DO something in a social or exploration situation you need spells. ANything a fighter without spells can do at 20th level (Not counting hitting things or damaging things) comes from skills that anyone can have or creative role play that anyone can do... on the other hand even a 7th or 8th level spell caster can keep up in combat (for it's level) still have skills/rp but ALSO has a pile of cool social and exploration abilities...

rogues at least get better at skills.


4e lets me play Jack oneil, Bruce wayne, James Bond, Conan. Heck 4e did better at playing a knight of the cross from the Dresden novels.

and by mistake you perffectly got the flaw of 5e let me quote agains

"if you absolutely decide to play one of the very few completely magic-less classes"

CASTER SUPREMACY "Hey how do we give rangers cool things...give them spells" "FIghters don't really have cool things what should we do? give them a subclass with spells"

 

[Lyxen]

4e fighter is NOT magic... it is extraordinary.

Believe me, I love the concept of the Warlord and would love to play one again in another edition (Battlemaster gives a good approximation though), but the 4e is purely artificial, giving powers that are like the other leaders, them jumping through hoops backwards to try (and fail) to justify how they could work without magic.

out of hundreds of powers... just like out of 100s of spells less then a 3rd of them are for things other then killing stuff.

Right, let's say 500 spells and powers, one third of that is still 166, so about 20 times more than the overall sum of non-combat related powers that you could milk out of 4e. QED.

there are just as many non combat things in 4e as any other edition (maybe MORE when you go pre 3e when skills where non weapon prof)

Wrong, see above.

BTW i DID go through the 5e books, and the only way a fighter and rogue can impact on non combat is skill...making things up (both apply to every edition so what ever even break) or take spell casting.

You asked out of how many archtypes...I think you mean subclass, something wizards warlocks clerics and others have at 2nd level, but not fighter rogue barbarian ranger monk... so no no archtypes.

They are called archetypes, you know, and every class gets them between level 1 and 3 (and not only some classes at level 2). You should know this if you played 5e to level 20...

Make no mistake I have played through 20th level in 5e even taking epic boons, and what I have found is what I found in 3e and 2e before... a fighter can rock at combat, can be fun to RP, but if you want to DO something in a social or exploration situation you need spells. ANything a fighter without spells can do at 20th level (Not counting hitting things or damaging things) comes from skills that anyone can have or creative role play that anyone can do... on the other hand even a 7th or 8th level spell caster can keep up in combat (for it's level) still have skills/rp but ALSO has a pile of cool social and exploration abilities...

If you are taking a pure fighter and putting everything only into fighting, including all your feats, yes, just as you would if you took a sorcerer and took only combat spells. Same principle, same effect.

rogues at least get better at skills.
4e lets me play Jack oneil, Bruce wayne, James Bond, Conan. Heck 4e did better at playing a knight of the cross from the Dresden novels.

Good for you. For me, it did not let me play anything else than extremely rigid archetypes while pushing a miniature across a grid. Some of the archetypes (Warlord, Swordmage) where really interesting, though.

and by mistake you perffectly got the flaw of 5e let me quote agains

"if you absolutely decide to play one of the very few completely magic-less classes"

CASTER SUPREMACY "Hey how do we give rangers cool things...give them spells" "FIghters don't really have cool things what should we do? give them a subclass with spells"

First, it's not a flaw in itself, it's waaayyyy better than depriving everyone of spells, and second, battlemaster has no spells and is really cool, does almost everything a warlord could do in combat, and can be a commander of armies as well as in 4e.

 

[HammerMan]

Right, let's say 500 spells and powers, one third of that is still 166, so about 20 times more than the overall sum of non-combat related powers that you could milk out of 4e. QED.

I only looked at 1 level of play (2nd), before that I had looked at 1st when I said cantrips (although I am sure there are more) I am not going through the whole game... I googled 2nd level utlity and stopped at 10ish.