D&D General No More "Humans in Funny Hats": Racial Mechanics Should Determine Racial Cultures

[Minigiant]

I just cannot agree, because the game is designed to not require any serious optimization at all.

Its literally in the math of the game. We dont need 16's, we dont need special rules, and we dont need magical items.

The basic math of the game, 5e, is perfectly supported with Standard Array, and no ASI at all.

The rest? Just makes it even easier.

I'm not expecting serious optimization.

The point is the race doesn't benefit 1/2 of the classes at all.

The puts you behind expectations.

You don't need a 16. However a Dragonborn grants dragon breath. A tiefling gives you extra spells. A dwarf gives you armor and weapons.

A orc or half orc does nothing for a wizard, sorcerer, bard, or warlock. And almost nothing for a cleric and druid. That is game design of either closedmindedness or narrowmindedness.

 

[Scribe]

I'm not expecting serious optimization.

The point is the race doesn't benefit 1/2 of the classes at all.

The puts you behind expectations.

You don't need a 16. However a Dragonborn grants dragon breath. A tiefling gives you extra spells. A dwarf gives you armor and weapons.

A orc or half orc does nothing for a wizard, sorcerer, bard, or warlock. And almost nothing for a cleric and druid. That is game design of either closedmindedness or narrowmindedness.

100%, power creep is a thing, and some of the options are better designed than others. I do anticipate we will see a redesign of some of these options come 5.5.

That said, I still see no issue with having some of these options being better at class X, than class Y. It's inevitable, especially if they are going to maintain this 30+ (and counting we dont even have the Spelljammer/Planescape options!) number of races. Its a lot.

 

[Minigiant]

100%, power creep is a thing, and some of the options are better designed than others. I do anticipate we will see a redesign of some of these options come 5.5.

That said, I still see no issue with having some of these options being better at class X, than class Y. It's inevitable, especially if they are going to maintain this 30+ (and counting we dont even have the Spelljammer/Planescape options!) number of races. Its a lot.

I'm fine with some races being better.

I'm not fine with big name races being absolute crap at running a lot of classesand archetypes.. Especially since it doesn't makesense. (Half) Orcs would have archers, priests, and arcanists and thereshould be a part of their race that could benefit the core class/character archtypes.

Orcs would have higher str bows, arcane weapon buffs, or easier time attacking with melee spells. But none of this was developed because the orc race is just "humans with funny angry hats" and it makes no sense for a game to treat such a race seriously.

I mean how do you design a race for the PHB and give it no benefits for 4 classes in the same book... in 2014

 

[Scribe]

I'm not fine with big name races being absolute crap at running a lot of classesand archetypes.. Especially since it doesn't makesense. (Half) Orcs would have archers, priests, and arcanists and thereshould be a part of their race that could benefit the core class/character archtypes.

Why though? Yes its a stereotype, but again there's no fault here that Orcs are just better at being the fighter/barbarian type, especially when its a 'nostalgia' edition that took pains at reinforcing commonly understood D&D Tropes.

Yes, Orcs would have archers, yes, they should have bows that have a str requirement, like we used to see. That would have been nice, but again 5e is pretty much simplified to a fault.

Is it Orc design, or is it 5e?

I mean how do you design a race for the PHB and give it no benefits for 4 classes in the same book... in 2014

I just think their primary focus, plastered on a board somewhere in the office was 'play to expectation, reinforce tropes, release the most D&D of D&D editions.'

Orcs, in that world (and Half Orcs) would be expected, to be barbarians, and fighters.

 

[Faolyn]

OK, so they can do that with their Standard Array, but the ASI doesnt go there, it is determined by their race.

At this point, I have to assume that you are deliberately choosing to not understand the issue here, and/or you actively want to prevent players from making the type of characters they want to play (such as by bringing back stat penalties, even though I know that many people have told you about why those are problematic). So there's really no point in discussing this with you.

 

[Scribe]

At this point, I have to assume that you are deliberately choosing to not understand the issue here, and/or you actively want to prevent players from making the type of characters they want to play (such as by bringing back stat penalties, even though I know that many people have told you about why those are problematic). So there's really no point in discussing this with you.

Nope, go ahead and play whatever you want.

Orc Wizard, Halfling Str Fighter, Tiefling Paladin (a personal favorite), Dragonborn Rogue, and so on forever, go nuts.

Perhaps I completely understand the issue, and simply dont see a missing 16 as unplayable?

 

[Faolyn]

What's not functional?

No matter what you like to think, having a +3 in a stat is better than having a +2. It might only be a 5% better, but that's still better. (And after all, if it weren't better, then you wouldn't insist that such a thing only be possible for certain race/stat combos--it wouldn't matter to you if halflings didn't automatically get a bonus to Dexterity and orcs didn't.)

And more importantly, when orcs came out, they had a penalty to Intelligence. Which meant that orc wizards were actively punished.

 

[Faolyn]

Nope, go ahead and play whatever you want.

Orc Wizard, Halfling Str Fighter, Tiefling Paladin (a personal favorite), Dragonborn Rogue, and so on forever, go nuts.

Perhaps I completely understand the issue, and simply dont see a missing 16 as unplayable?

If you actually understood the issue, you wouldn't be harping on that 16. You'd realize the actual issue is most people (a) don't like stereotypes all that much, and (b) want to be able to make their characters the way they want.

(Hmm, orc wizards, dragonborn rogues, halfling Strength fighters... and your favorite, tiefling paladins, a Cha-based race in a MAD class where Cha is the second-most important stat. One of these things is not like the other.)

 

[Scribe]

No matter what you like to think, having a +3 in a stat is better than having a +2. It might only be a 5% better, but that's still better. (And after all, if it weren't better, then you wouldn't insist that such a thing only be possible for certain race/stat combos--it wouldn't matter to you if halflings didn't automatically get a bonus to Dexterity and orcs didn't.)

And more importantly, when orcs came out, they had a penalty to Intelligence. Which meant that orc wizards were actively punished.

All of this is true and correct.

Nothing says Orc Wizards are not functional however?

 

[Minigiant]

Why though? Yes its a stereotype, but again there's no fault here that Orcs are just better at being the fighter/barbarian type, especially when its a 'nostalgia' edition that took pains at reinforcing commonly understood D&D Tropes.

Yes, Orcs would have archers, yes, they should have bows that have a str requirement, like we used to see. That would have been nice, but again 5e is pretty much simplified to a fault.

Is it Orc design, or is it 5e?

both

I like I said many times, 5e was designed as if many slightly uncommon tropes and antitropes of fantasy didn't exist or were of low worth. And with this mindset. there was no reason to put any work making the tropes work as fantasy fans expected. And that how we got the starting state of things like beastmasters, TWF, and orcs.

I just think their primary focus, plastered on a board somewhere in the office was 'play to expectation, reinforce tropes, release the most D&D of D&D editions.'

Orcs, in that world (and Half Orcs) would be expected, to be barbarians, and fighters.

The secondary focus was to bring more fans into the game. That's why they added things like element monks, tree paladins, and goolocks.

However their research into what these new fans and some of their newer established fans might prefer was poor. So 5e got the fans and popularity, they became the dog that caught the car.