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D&D General No More "Humans in Funny Hats": Racial Mechanics Should Determine Racial Cultures

Vaalingrade

Legend
Let me remind everyone of this post. This thread is not about debating racial ASIs or the new design of races/lineages in D&D 5e.
I'm pretty sure EVERY thread that mentions ASIs must now devolve into complaining about game design marching on and using 'powergamer' as a slur (the only time someone won't scream badwrongfun when people attack, criticize or fail to praise a play style you don't like).
 

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AcererakTriple6

Autistic DM (he/him)
Racial ASIs are part of racial mechanics and are therefore on topic.
Sure. However, discussing whether or not the game should have racial ASIs is not on topic at all, is a divisive topic proven to derail threads and make them less constructive, and I am 100% in my rights to ask that such a volatile, off-topic tangent is not included in this thread.
That you would go run and complain to moderators if it doesn't go your way isn't. I didn't cave in to that threat in school when the kids threatened it, I'm not going to accept it from an adult.
I started this thread, I determined its topic. If you don't like it, feel free to find a different thread on that topic. Don't bring it into this thread. Furthermore, I really do not appreciate the personal attacks here (where you insinuate immaturity for me just wanting this thread to remain on topic and constructive).
Sure. This is the proper way to ask. Not threaten to run to moderation.
I was letting people know beforehand that if the thread continues trending into an off-topic tangent that often ends up getting threads closed that I would ask moderation to act. It's not a threat, it's a warning. Even though I started this thread, I don't own it, but neither do you. I, however, am more than free to request that it stays within the topic laid out in the OP.
 

AcererakTriple6

Autistic DM (he/him)
I'm pretty sure EVERY thread that mentions ASIs must now devolve into complaining about game design marching on and using 'powergamer' as a slur (the only time someone won't scream badwrongfun when people attack, criticize or fail to praise a play style you don't like).
Exactly. This is 100% why I requested that the tangent be dropped. It's off topic, and it ruins threads. I'm not asking for much, I just want this thread to not turn into another flame war of people finger-pointing and accusing each other of "powergaming" (as if that's a bad thing) and going in circles around a topic that will probably never get resolved.

@Scribe linked another thread on that topic. Go to that one, or start your own thread, if you want to discuss this tangent. This is not the place to do so.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
That you would go run and complain to moderators if it doesn't go your way isn't. I didn't cave in to that threat in school when the kids threatened it, I'm not going to accept it from an adult.

Mod Note:
As if you're the Arbiter of What's Okay?

Funny thing - for now, I was actually okay with you continuing that argument, even though you are beating a horse that has died and been resurrected several times over. Pointless, but whatever, right? If you had just continued on politely enough, you'd have been fine.

But here, this posturing? Puffing up your chest about how YOU are going to stand up to people? That's turning what should be a discussion on preferences on how to pretend to be elves into an ego contest.

It looks like time for you to find another discussion.
 

I'm pretty sure EVERY thread that mentions ASIs must now devolve into complaining about game design marching on and using 'powergamer' as a slur (the only time someone won't scream badwrongfun when people attack, criticize or fail to praise a play style you don't like).
I do find it interesting that when you read "powergamer," you infer that the writer implies it as negative. One can say: "IMO, they do this for powergaming purposes" and not mean it negatively, but as a style of play. Just because it conflicts with their style of play doesn't automatically mean they are viewing it as negative.

In fact, when fixed ASIs were a thing, I feel certain most of us who are players made both types of characters - one's that got a 16 or 17 and ones that got a 15.
 


jasper

Rotten DM
So, let's go with the Kender where the concept of personal property has no meaning, and the Lawful Neutral type creature with a very strict set of laws about theft. Say, in that culture, a hand is cut off of a thief. Pray tell, precisely how do these chars co-exist?
They don't. Kenders only survive because they are being played by your younger goober sibling who will scream for mom if they die. And no moe76yetetetetetetetet b (Swag kitten says what ever)
And no more D&D, console gaming, and off to military school if you do kill the kender.
 

jasper

Rotten DM
Teachers, engineers, doctors, lawyers, who are you? I having a Kingdom of Meridies Flashback. Aka small groups problems are big problems.

I like the terms. I am taxman them. Aka stealing.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Only two types of people use Tasha's and the offshoot rules in char builds: Powergamers and those who want to make a political statement.
This is very obviously false, and inflammatory for literally no reason.
The way 5e is going, I think I’ll actually be embarrassed to teach a newbie. It would probably go something like this…
Newbie “ Wow, look at this one, a Minotaur, I want to play something big and strong like that”.
Me “Erm, well you can be strong but you’ll be just as strong as this one”
Newbie “What, that kid with the hairy feet, how does that work, I’m massive”
Me “Well, erm actually you aren’t, despite what it appears like in the these pictures and these plastic figures, you are actually the same height as a human, as is this small kid with the hairy feet.”
Newbie “Er, alright. I’ve seen Lord of the Rings. I want to be like Legolas, live hundreds of years. I’ll have pointy ears, I won’t be like this big, well not big, Minotaur thing, all clumsy, I’ll be really good with a bow”
Me “Well, the Minotaur is just as good with a bow, you can have pointy ears but you won’t live longer than anyone else”
Newbie “Ok, screw that, I’ll be a Dwarf and I’ll go kill lots of Orcs and Goblins”
Me “Well, although he’s called a Dwarf, they aren’t actually shorter than the average human. You shouldn’t really want to kill Orcs and Goblins either as they might be quite nice people actually when you get to know them.
Newbie “I’m not playing this stupid game”.
There is absolutely nothing about what wotc has been doing that leads to anything remotely like this.

Fairies were just released, and guess what? They’re completely different from any other race in the book.

The Astral Elves posited in the recent UA are presented as a new race rather than a subrace…and they are explicitly described as living for centuries.


Either way, races with no differences in ability scores fall afoul of Syndrome's Law
No, they don’t. Further, Syndrome was a demented fool, and his argument is one of the most asinine bits of nonsense argument made by a villain in a supers movies in decades.
 

AcererakTriple6

Autistic DM (he/him)
This is very obviously false, and inflammatory for literally no reason.

There is absolutely nothing about what wotc has been doing that leads to anything remotely like this.

Fairies were just released, and guess what? They’re completely different from any other race in the book.

The Astral Elves posited in the recent UA are presented as a new race rather than a subrace…and they are explicitly described as living for centuries.



No, they don’t. Further, Syndrome was a demented fool, and his argument is one of the most asinine bits of nonsense argument made by a villain in a supers movies in decades.
You're a bit behind, so I'll point you to this post.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
If those chars are truly RP'ed, one of those chars either is killed by the other char, or leaves the party in some manner.
What? Lol

No. Obviously not. They’re all sapient people from very social species with advanced cultures, and thus are all people who can sublimate their instincts in order to cooperate in a group.

A character from a culture where thieves are mutilated, who, while traveling with a group who rely on eachother for survival in lands where the law doesn’t require mutilating thieves, tries to kill a person whose folk have no sense of personal property, is either a hackneyed caricature, or a psychopath.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
You're a bit behind, so I'll point you to this post.
You…know you’re not a mod, right?

The “understood” at the end of that post especially is a bit much. I’ve deleted some text here bc I replied more in irritation at your tone than in reply to what you were trying to communicate.

Barring a mod statement that a topic is done being discussed in this thread, people have a right to reply to statements on that topic.

Anyway, people reply to stuff in threads. 🤷‍♂️
 
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doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Anyway, gnomes being smarter on average is interesting and flavorful, and should be reflected in their cultures, but only if the writers are careful to avoid racial monoliths.

The new take from the designers that the playable stats don’t represent the race in general somehow is…just bad, IMO, because it means you cannot both follow the new direction and do what the OP is suggesting. Are halflings lucky and brave? Are gnomes inventive and curious and on average rather quick cognitively? Ask your DM?

So I think we pretty much have to ignore that aspect of the new direction (which I overall approve of to be clear) and instead assume that the traits in a race’s writeup are at least common in that race.
 

AcererakTriple6

Autistic DM (he/him)
You…know you’re not a mod, right?
The snark here is hostile and not necessary.
The “understood” at the end of that post especially is a bit much. I’ve deleted some text here bc I replied more in irritation at your tone than in reply to what you were trying to communicate.
I was literally just asking that the thread remains on topic. You want to challenge that? Fine. Take it up with @Umbran if you like. However, I am within my rights to ask that the thread doesn't drift back into that non-constructive tangent.
Barring a mod statement that a topic is done being discussed in this thread, people have a right to reply to statements on that topic.
There was a mod statement.
Anyway, people reply to stuff in threads. 🤷‍♂️
I'm not saying you can't post in this thread or reply to other people's posts, I just don't want that tangent to be revived, due to its divisive nature.

Edit: I just want to point out that I actually agreed with your post. However, based on the trends of threads that drift into the Racial ASI debate becoming less and less constructive and more and more hostile, as well as the fact that this thread was not intended to house that debate . . . that's why I've requested, multiple times now, that the thread stays on topic.
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
You…know you’re not a mod, right?

The “understood” at the end of that post especially is a bit much. I’ve deleted some text here bc I replied more in irritation at your tone than in reply to what you were trying to communicate.

Barring a mod statement that a topic is done being discussed in this thread, people have a right to reply to statements on that topic.

Anyway, people reply to stuff in threads. 🤷‍♂️
Mod Note:

Most of this post is fine…except that first line is problematic. It’s a bit of poking the bear, you know? Do better going forward.
 


What? Lol

No. Obviously not. They’re all sapient people from very social species with advanced cultures, and thus are all people who can sublimate their instincts in order to cooperate in a group.

A character from a culture where thieves are mutilated, who, while traveling with a group who rely on eachother for survival in lands where the law doesn’t require mutilating thieves, tries to kill a person whose folk have no sense of personal property, is either a hackneyed caricature, or a psychopath.
And once those "cultural driven actions" that are sublimated, for the better of the group, then we are back to Humans Wearing Funny Hats.

Humans playing ANY game, or involved in any endeavour, can ONLY participate from the perspective and value system of a human being. None of us any have psychological point of reference for any other creature, because first off, they don't exist, and secondly, even if they did, we can't crawl into their skins and grow up in that creature's "culture", then join some disparate group.

And as for calling anyone who follows a strict code a psychopath.....yeah, there are a number of people who follow the Qur'an, the Old Testament, or any number of other religious books, that might take issue with you. Further, how do you know the Kender in the group is NOT traveling in a land where those laws apply?
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
And once those "cultural driven actions" that are sublimated, for the better of the group, then we are back to Humans Wearing Funny Hats.
Hardly. People are defined both by what they do and what they refuse to do. A person who is forcing themselves to not do a thing in order to cooperate in a group is different from a person who has no impulse or instinct to do that thing.
Further, how do you know the Kender in the group is NOT traveling in a land where those laws apply
Because if they are, it’s a different issue and discussion.
 

Hardly. People are defined both by what they do and what they refuse to do. A person who is forcing themselves to not do a thing in order to cooperate in a group is different from a person who has no impulse or instinct to do that thing.

Because if they are, it’s a different issue and discussion.
Hey word..."people". You are conflating human perception and values with those of some fictitious creature, where you, as a human, want to "explore the culture" of said fictitious creature, while, as a human, you have no clue, because said culture does not exist. You can only char as a human with a funny hat.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Hey word..."people". You are conflating human perception and values with those of some fictitious creature, where you, as a human, want to "explore the culture" of said fictitious creature, while, as a human, you have no clue, because said culture does not exist. You can only char as a human with a funny hat.
“People” and “person” just mean sapient being. The rest is irrelevant pedantry.
 

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