RPG Theory- The Limits of My Language are the Limits of My World

[Thomas Shey]

All I’m suggesting is that saying it’s popular now because it’s always been popular doesn’t explain what made it popular to begin with. Note that 5e has become immensely more popular despite he previous edition being much less popular in comparison.

Well, not to put too fine a point on it, but being first out the door is not a benefit to be understated. Unless you count Tunnels and Trolls (where the jokey approach put a lot of people off), most any survivors from that period came along a good two years after D&D arrived. That's plenty of time to dominate the mindspace. All it needed at that point was to at least be adequate, and not completely drop the ball thereafter.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

The success of 5e is obviously a lot about branding and market dynamics. But playing it, and seeing others play it and get into rpgs for the first time, I think what it suggests to me is, to put it pithily, ‘system doesn’t matter.’ Or doesn’t matter to the degree and in the ways that some people think it does. There’s an element to a game system that affords a playstyle by simply not getting in the way. So, we don’t actually need mechanics for fantasy shopping. The character and world building prompts in the game do a better job, without rules, to give people the fantasy shopping simulator they desire. Making sure the ‘system has a say’ would make the experience less fun. When people are trying to perform, having to refer to mechanics can be disruptive. (Similarity we can say that critical role was influential for 5e’s success. But what makes dnd a good vehicle for that kind of game? What about dnd produces the Matt mercers of the world?)

With regards to character, I think the way that dnd evokes fantasy archetypes is a big part of why people like it. I prefer osr games with streamlined classes and races. But I’ve realized that is not what my players like. And from reading things online, I infer that most players are wrapped up in the backstory and/or build of their characters. They are not concerned with authoring the fiction of the world because they are in charge of authoring the fiction of the one thing they care about, their characters (and their character’s pets).

And in a similar vein, I've ran a fair number of FKR/rules-lite games in the past few years, and genuinely enjoy them. But while that worked great for one-shots or short arcs, my main group wanted a more lasting campaign with character advancement (that feedback loop)- and they wanted 5e (and 5e's structure) for that. We adopted some of the playstyle from the rules-lite games, but within the overall 5e framework.

Anyway, what I found so interesting about the Elusive Shift is the extent to which the conversations we are having today on the forum, and were having 10 years ago, and 20 years ago, are just rehashes of the same ones that were being had in the 70s and early 80s.

But maybe no one else read it?

 

[FrogReaver]

Well, not to put too fine a point on it, but being first out the door is not a benefit to be understated. Unless you count Tunnels and Trolls (where the jokey approach put a lot of people off), most any survivors from that period came along a good two years after D&D arrived. That's plenty of time to dominate the mindspace. All it needed at that point was to at least be adequate, and not completely drop the ball thereafter.

Sure but IMO that made a bit better argument before 4e and 5e as the cause for D&D’s popularity. But it doesn’t explain 5e’s popularity relative to 4e’s. What does is the difference in the game itself. There’s something more to it than starting first and branding, especially after all these years.

 

[Campbell]

Sure but IMO that made a bit better argument before 4e and 5e as the cause for D&D’s popularity. But it doesn’t explain 5e’s popularity relative to 4e’s. What does is the difference in the game itself. There’s something more to it than starting first and branding, especially after all these years.

Why keep beating this dead horse though? What good do all these 4e sideswipes do for our community? Other than to make 4e fans feel unwelcome?

 

[FrogReaver]

Why keep beating this dead horse though? What good do all these 4e sideswipes do for our community?

It’s not a sideswipe. I liked 4e.

 

[Ovinomancer]

I do enjoy arguments that 5e's system must be good because, well, I can find reasons (but no evidence) that it can't be popularity, branding, marketing, or publicity (like Critical Role). So, therefore it must be the system. No evidence is given why this system is superior to even past editions of D&D in a way that could drive it's popularity. No specific points of analysis are provided as to how the system creates fun and engaging play across a wide range of play agendas. None of this. It's just claims and claims and claims.

5e is popular. Why? Dunno. Certainly branding is important. Certainly publicity is important (Critical Role was perfectly timed). Certainly shifts in popular culture are important. And certainly the fact it's system is solid, maybe even good, is important. You cannot tease this out, or claim that one is the larger factor, because there's no way to get the data necessary. Maybe it is the system, but then it would have to be because the design goal was to leave the system just incomplete enough and just vague enough that it could appear to be many things to many people and could function well enough in all those ways. I mean, that's brilliant design, but then it's really hard to say that 5e is popular because it has the best system. Because "best" is really individually defined and includes all of the work and approach the players take for each table. Again, that's brilliant, but in a weird way.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Sure but IMO that made a bit better argument before 4e and 5e as the cause for D&D’s popularity. But it doesn’t explain 5e’s popularity relative to 4e’s. What does is the difference in the game itself. There’s something more to it than starting first and branding, especially after all these years.

That's true, but how to put this: Even D&D 4e was dramatically more popular in terms of raw numbers than virtually anything else on the market. So even though a presumably significant part of the base recoiled from it, the amount left was still enough to largely dwarf everything else.

That says there are issue going on here well beyond anything to do with system design. And if people expect me to ignore that, I'm afraid I'm just going to make them unhappy.

 

[Thomas Shey]

I do enjoy arguments that 5e's system must be good because, well, I can find reasons (but no evidence) that it can't be popularity, branding, marketing, or publicity (like Critical Role). So, therefore it must be the system. No evidence is given why this system is superior to even past editions of D&D in a way that could drive it's popularity. No specific points of analysis are provided as to how the system creates fun and engaging play across a wide range of play agendas. None of this. It's just claims and claims and claims.

Heck, I'd be willing to make arguments why 5e (which, to keep clear, I'm not a fan of) is superior to editions prior to 3e. On the other hand, some of the arguments I'd make would add up to "ways its not like the traditional view of D&D" primarily in character customization, so some people would likely consider it damning with faint praise.

5e is popular. Why? Dunno. Certainly branding is important. Certainly publicity is important (Critical Role was perfectly timed). Certainly shifts in popular culture are important. And certainly the fact it's system is solid, maybe even good, is important. You cannot tease this out, or claim that one is the larger factor, because there's no way to get the data necessary.

This is essentially the argument I've made. D&D is an abnormal game in a lot of non-system related ways compared to the rest of the market. Whether that's the key to its overall popularity or not isn't, and likely can't, be clear, but its also a little much to act like it can't be a significant factor.

 

[dragoner]

Here on the enworld there is a bias towards old school and dungeoncrawling in D&D discussions, probably because it's only us old timers use forums these days, but take a trip to /r/DnD. Look what advice people there give or ask for. For me, it's clear as day that there are at least some people who would be better served with something other than D&D.

Roll a d20 vs a TN, now you are playing DnD.

I am over there, I was just posting in the Traveller reddit, answering questions about my setting that I have on dtrpg. It is the same with Traveller, roll 2d6 vs a TN, now it's Traveller.

DnD gets its grip in a lot of ways due to ancillary products, gencon has a massive manufacturers midway, devoted to just that, and you can watch them engrave custom dice for a $1000. So whatever they are playing, they are going to take out the custom wooden dice case, with their $1000 dice, just for an example.

I was sitting in a beer garden having a beer with the players on an upcomming CoC campaign about the Mad Baron, I was lucky they really didn't know anything about Ungern. Gave me lots of freedom, nevertheless, they were talking about finishing their Pathfinder "Magic Girl" anime campaign, which I almost mentioned there might be other games that better cover the subject, and realized, I don't know anything about the subject really.

 

[FrogReaver]

That's true, but how to put this: Even D&D 4e was dramatically more popular in terms of raw numbers than virtually anything else on the market. So even though a presumably significant part of the base recoiled from it, the amount left was still enough to largely dwarf everything else.

That says there are issue going on here well beyond anything to do with system design. And if people expect me to ignore that, I'm afraid I'm just going to make them unhappy.

Right. Popularity can be because d) all of the above. Your example is an excellent way of pointing that out. And possibly also a good springboard for the notion that 4e and 5e still are very similar in alot of ways (very different in others). Thise similarities and differences could make a good case study for which kinds of mechanics are more popular.

Note: It was the notion that the game itself wasn’t part of the reason for its popularity I was pushing back on. Seems we agree there.