Level Up (A5E) Question - Expertise and Proficiency

[Subtle Knife]

Hey, all!

It makes some logical sense that in order to have expertise, one must have proficiency; however, I don't see that spelled out specifically anywhere. More to the point, I see some spots where that is very likely to NOT be the case.

As an example, the 10th level Reputation feature of the Fighter, wherein you get an expertise die specifically against Persuasion, Deception, or Intimidation skills (your choice). Considering that two of these skills are not on the fighter skill list (Persuasion, Deception), there is a very good chance you won't be proficient in any of these by 10th level (the character I am modeling isn't!).

So here's the question - if a feature does not say specifically that you need to be proficient to gain an expertise die (see Rogue Skill Tricks), is it possible to have expertise in a skill for which you are not proficient?

Once again, thanks all!

Subtle Knife

 

[FitzTheRuke]

I'm pretty sure "yes". Expertise can represent being good at a small part of a skill that you are otherwise not very good at. Think of proficiency as "full training" and expertise as "specialty tricks" - sometimes the tricks are on top of training, and sometimes they are instead of.

 

[VanguardHero]

Plus, if I got an expertise die in a thing I wasn't proficient in, or knew I was going to get one, I'd definitely want to spend some downtime learning that Skill to make the most out of it

 

[Faolyn]

I would say no, you don't have to be proficient.

However, don't forget that you get a bonus skill, specialization, proficiency, or language for each +1 of your Int mod.

 

[Praeden]

I would say no, you don't have to be proficient.

However, don't forget that you get a bonus skill, specialization, proficiency, or language for each +1 of your Int mod.

People will need to ensure that they build their characters in a certain way (e.g. no knowledge skills from heritage, background or class) if they want to use bonus int to choose a skill, tool or language. Otherwise, the RAW requires that they use bonus int to take specialisations only.

Level Up (A5E) - Engineering and Culture - skill discussion

The discussion starts from post 4.

 

[Faolyn]

People will need to ensure that they build their characters in a certain way (e.g. no knowledge skills from heritage, background or class) if they want to use bonus int to choose a skill, tool or language. Otherwise, the RAW requires that they use bonus int to take specialisations only.

Level Up (A5E) - Engineering and Culture - skill discussion

The discussion starts from post 4.

You're correct. I misread it.

Edit: However, Arcana, Culture, Engineering, History, Nature, and Religion are all fairly Int-based skills (even if they don't default to Int anymore). I think that it'd be pretty easy for many PCs to have only one or two of those skills on that list just because of their class, and if they have a decently high Int, they'd have probably at least one "free" skill or proficiency.

I made an Int-based warlock for fun, screwed up on my reading of this, and still only ended up with one skill on that list, Arcana. I'll redo him and see what he gets.

Edit 2: I redid him (he's first level, BTW). From heritage, background, culture, and class, he got five skills: Arcana, Deception, Persuasion, Investigation, and Insight. I wasn't trying to game the system or anything--the only other skills he could have taken from that list were History and Religion, and neither of those were appropriate based on the albeit minimal background I have for him (since I made him for fun, not an actual game).

I get free specializations equal to my proficiency bonus, so I put one in Arcana and one in Insight, both of which were appropriate.

So now I get my Int mod (+3) specializations, and he has nothing left on that list that he has to take. So the only question is, if I take something on that list--say, Culture--would I then immediately have to take a specialization in it?

 

[Praeden]

During character creation, for each point of your Intelligence modifier above 0 you can choose a skill specialty in one of the following skills (covered in detail page 408): Arcana, Culture, Engineering, History, Nature, Religion. If you are not proficient in any of these skills you can gain proficiency with one, choose an extra language known, or pick a tool proficiency in one artisan’s tool, gaming kit, instrument, or vehicle.

Bold emphasis is mine.

When I read the second sentence, I understand it to mean that the alternatives to a bonus speciality are only available to characters who have none of the listed skills. Furthermore, you are not limited to taking only one speciality per skill, and indeed many characters (including your warlock) must use a high int bonus to take multiple same skill specialities.

A High Elf wizard will get Culture from their... culture. They may perhaps have no other knowledge skill proficiencies, but in that case the fact that they have Culture means that they are obliged to spend all of their bonus int to take specialities in Culture. They would probably be better off having a few other knowledge skills to spread the bonus specialisations around.

Your character is in a similar situation - he only has proficiency in Arcana from that list. All of his bonus int must therefore be spent on Arcana specialities (so unless you are really leaning in that direction, probably best to use your first two speciality choices for Insight + one other non-Arcana skill).

Morrus agreed with my reading of the rules on the other thread, although we haven't heard from the person who actually wrote that section.

 

[Faolyn]

Well, in this case I'm going to report this for unclear wording. Because it's very silly to expect someone to have to buy a zillion specialties for a single skill.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

I'm not a fan of the design. Why would someone without any of those skills have the option to take languages or tools? It would be more consistent to require them to take a skill and then put the rest into specialties for that skill.

I don't see a good reason that already having invested in knowledge skills should make this feature less flexible, so I'm just going to allow you to take your pick of any option regardless of how many knowledge skills you may or may not already know.

 

[Praeden]

I'm not a fan of the design. Why would someone without any of those skills have the option to take languages or tools? It would be more consistent to require them to take a skill and then put the rest into specialties for that skill.

I don't see a good reason that already having invested in knowledge skills should make this feature less flexible, so I'm just going to allow you to take your pick of any option regardless of how many knowledge skills you may or may not already know.

I agree there are issues. I suspect the designers thought that giving up to five extra skill proficiencies to a high int wizard was too much, and would step on the bard's toes. The idea of giving specialisations instead meant that the wizard could still be a font of knowledge, but in a more focused, PhD kind of way.

Of course, with the rule in place, they needed to account for the possibility of characters without any knowledge skill proficiencies. And that is where the strangeness arose.