D&D General Why is tradition (in D&D) important to you? [+]

[Hussar]

So ... I'm not allowed to have an opinion and point of view that differs from yours?

Good to know.

That is completely not what I said.

You can have any opinion you want. That's fine.

But, when your opinion is self-contradictory, it does seem a little bit confusing. "Oh, I really want unique classes that are different from each other" a la AD&D, is perfectly understandable. "Oh, I really want unique classes that are different from each other, that's why I like 5e where you only have 3 different classes" is a bit strange.

 

[Hussar]

Yknow what?

This is the wrong thread to have the exact same conversation I’ve had far too many times before.

I apologize for the derail into edition war territory. It’s so not worth it.

 

[Oofta]

That is completely not what I said.

You can have any opinion you want. That's fine.

But, when your opinion is self-contradictory, it does seem a little bit confusing. "Oh, I really want unique classes that are different from each other" a la AD&D, is perfectly understandable. "Oh, I really want unique classes that are different from each other, that's why I like 5e where you only have 3 different classes" is a bit strange.

I am looking at it from a different perspective with different criteria. You don't have to agree.

I feel the structure and what the classes feel like in play is different. It's a judgement call and opinion. Dismissing my opinion as "strange" because I use different criteria is insulting.

I'm done with this discussion.

 

[HammerMan]

This is why I get so baffled by these discussions. Why is it so hard to say, "I just don't like X"? Why does it have to be justified? "Oh, I like tradition" - except that "I like tradition" only ever applies when someone doesn't like something. No one ever likes tradition but then claims that a new idea that they like shouldn't be done. "Change for change's sake" is a rhetorical gambit that sets up an unassailable position because there is no way to falsify the statement.

Watching the logical knots that people tie themselves into in order to justify their preferences is a constant source of amusement.

I would love to imagine what the complaint would look like...

Advantage/Disadvantage is so much easier, and so much better... but AD&D 2e never let you roll 2d20, so D&D shouldn't....

 

[HammerMan]

But, here's the thing. If uniqueness and distinction are important to you (and I largely agree actually, I'm a big believer in class niche), that's fine. But, to claim that classes feel the same in 4e because they have the same power structure, but, don't feel the same in other editions, despite the classes being built on the same power structure, it gets rather confusing.

someone somewhere said "They are all spell casters now," most likely someone who had either A) not played it anyway, or B) had a financial interest in 4e failing, or C)both... and it caught on...

for a non edition war version of this look up the YouTube Channel Cinema Sins "Everything Wrong With" it is a movie review channel that is played mostly for laughs... but when people watch in mass numbers they manage to get ideas (even ones originally with no merit other then a dumb joke) repeated over and over again until people who have never seen the 'review' or even the movie quote almost word for word the complaint as 'common knowledge' about what is wrong with a film... TBF I don't belive those creators do it on purpose and they now add more jokes at there own expense "I know it's explained later but I have to sin it".

In 4e, I could create two characters with the same class that share pretty much nothing. Completely different abilities and powers. Completely different play as well. You couldn't possible match the customization of a 4e class with any other edition.

4e I could make (just an example) 3 warlords out of the PHB alone that are 10th level and each carries the AEUD structure but has not 1 over lap of EUD parts (having only 4 at wills means each can have 1 unquie at will though) I could easily replicate this feat with any spell caster in 5e (still haveing at wills and daily's) infact we have... I have a campaign I am in with 4 PCs 3 of them are artificers (battlesmith focused on range, alchmist focused on melee and healing, and my armorer melee) along with the druid who was a spoiled sport and would not round us out... we share not at wills, and we all have a 'standard prep' list that has no over lap.

So, claims about "uniqueness" seem like such a bizarre criticism. Every fighter in 5e is pretty much the same. At least until 3rd level. And, even then, there isn't a huge difference. And two fighters with the same subclass are going to be virtually identical in play. And, if we go back to AD&D, it's even less unique. Two fighters are going to be nearly identical - the only real difference might be in stats.

okay, TBF (I hate defending 3e, but I love to defend 2e) in 3e 2 2nd level fighters even out of the PHB could look and play VERY diffrent... I don't remember everything from the PHB (we had alot of house rules and add ons by the end both wotc and 3rd party) having 3-4 (depending on if human, or flaws were aloud maybe 5-6) feats was MASSIVE customization and at low level (say up to 5th) the balance wasn't bad...

2e had a bit of that (not as much) with prof... remember in 2e you didn't know every (or almost every) weapon, you started with 4... so having Handaxe great axe, long bow, shield bash was different then longsword dagger cross bow kick
(later there were weapon groups we used to write it as Bladesx3 or Cleavex3... it cost 3 profs to get a whole catagory... and ALOT of our fighters would start with Bladesx3 longbow... then at 3rd level take specilization in one of them)

Like I said, claiming uniqueness as a tradition in D&D seems like a really strange one to me.

 

[Oofta]

someone somewhere said "They are all spell casters now," most likely someone who had either A) not played it anyway, or B) had a financial interest in 4e failing, or C)both... and it caught on...

for a non edition war version of this look up the YouTube Channel Cinema Sins "Everything Wrong With" it is a movie review channel that is played mostly for laughs... but when people watch in mass numbers they manage to get ideas (even ones originally with no merit other then a dumb joke) repeated over and over again until people who have never seen the 'review' or even the movie quote almost word for word the complaint as 'common knowledge' about what is wrong with a film... TBF I don't belive those creators do it on purpose and they now add more jokes at there own expense "I know it's explained later but I have to sin it".

4e I could make (just an example) 3 warlords out of the PHB alone that are 10th level and each carries the AEUD structure but has not 1 over lap of EUD parts (having only 4 at wills means each can have 1 unquie at will though) I could easily replicate this feat with any spell caster in 5e (still haveing at wills and daily's) infact we have... I have a campaign I am in with 4 PCs 3 of them are artificers (battlesmith focused on range, alchmist focused on melee and healing, and my armorer melee) along with the druid who was a spoiled sport and would not round us out... we share not at wills, and we all have a 'standard prep' list that has no over lap.

okay, TBF (I hate defending 3e, but I love to defend 2e) in 3e 2 2nd level fighters even out of the PHB could look and play VERY diffrent... I don't remember everything from the PHB (we had alot of house rules and add ons by the end both wotc and 3rd party) having 3-4 (depending on if human, or flaws were aloud maybe 5-6) feats was MASSIVE customization and at low level (say up to 5th) the balance wasn't bad...

2e had a bit of that (not as much) with prof... remember in 2e you didn't know every (or almost every) weapon, you started with 4... so having Handaxe great axe, long bow, shield bash was different then longsword dagger cross bow kick
(later there were weapon groups we used to write it as Bladesx3 or Cleavex3... it cost 3 profs to get a whole catagory... and ALOT of our fighters would start with Bladesx3 longbow... then at 3rd level take specilization in one of them)

This thread is not about 4E. If you want to start a thread to complain about how people had different opinions on the version feel free.

 

[HammerMan]

Since we don't have an official classification guide for D&D, what makes classes feel different is going to be subjective.

I don't think of clerics and wizards as being the same. One gets access to all spells they're ever going to have the other has to find or learn specific spells. Sorcerers are even more limited and different. Rogues have sneak attack, fighters have multiple attacks and the option of heavy armor, barbarians have rages.

Those all feel unique and distinct to me. It's also been largely true for all editions except 4E. I don't really care how other people do categories. On the other hand in 4E everyone had at will, encounter and daily powers. Same decision points, same structure, same resource management.

what baffles me is exactly what you said seems to me to be more 'meme' then real example...
in 4e fighters made more attacks (most times) then rogues, rogues had sneak attack. barbarians had rage.

The problem I have isn't the "I don't/didn't like it" that part is purely subjective. the problem is this reads like "I don't like MCU movies because they all have superman in them" the beginning is 100% subjective "I don't like MCU movies" but the second part is factuarlly wrong "They all have superman in them"

So I'm baffled why people have such an issues with other's opinions and judgements. I see a pattern, you don't. It's not "logical knots", just a different perspective. One you don't have to agree with. This is a thread about what traditions are important to you; classes feeling different, having different decision points, have a different feel to me.

and again, no one minds you thinking diffrent, they mind you 'justifying' (even though for like/dislike no justification is needed) by repeating false claims...

you said 1 thing that I agree with AND is factually accurate...
"On the other hand in 4E everyone had at will, encounter and daily powers. Same decision points, same structure, same resource management."
that is 100% true, and you can like or dislike it...

 

[HammerMan]

This thread is not about 4E. If you want to start a thread to complain about how people had different opinions on the version feel free.

I find it funny that this comes down to "I want to complain about something, but you can't complain about me complaining" if you don't want to discus 4e, then don't bring it up... if you bring it up expect people to discus it.

TBH if I start a 4e thread it would NOT be about complaints... it would be to talk about 4e... I just keep seeing general conversations turn into "4e was the worst edition" or "4e failed" or something simialr...

 

[Oofta]

what baffles me is exactly what you said seems to me to be more 'meme' then real example...
in 4e fighters made more attacks (most times) then rogues, rogues had sneak attack. barbarians had rage.

The problem I have isn't the "I don't/didn't like it" that part is purely subjective. the problem is this reads like "I don't like MCU movies because they all have superman in them" the beginning is 100% subjective "I don't like MCU movies" but the second part is factuarlly wrong "They all have superman in them"


and again, no one minds you thinking diffrent, they mind you 'justifying' (even though for like/dislike no justification is needed) by repeating false claims...

you said 1 thing that I agree with AND is factually accurate...
"On the other hand in 4E everyone had at will, encounter and daily powers. Same decision points, same structure, same resource management."
that is 100% true, and you can like or dislike it...

I expressed an opinion that to me 4E broke with tradition by going with AEDUs for every class.

Feel free to start a different thread if you want. I'm done having this conversation.

 

[HammerMan]

I expressed an opinion that to me 4E broke with tradition by going with AEDUs for every class.

Feel free to start a different thread if you want. I'm done having this conversation.

if you don't want to talk about it, don't bring it up