D&D General Why is tradition (in D&D) important to you? [+]

[HammerMan]

I want to type something about the difference between revision and re-envisioning.

In one sense Thanksgiving dinner is meat and starch. More specifically though is it Turkey w/maybe ham, mashed potatoes, stuffing/dressing, sweet potatoes, and maybe mac and cheese? Deep frying the Turkey instead of baking and having pork roast instead of ham for the second seems like a revision. Is Chicken w/maybe venison and baked potatoes, rice, au gratin potatoes, and maybe spaghetti still just a revision because it's a poultry w/maybe non-beef-meat a potato, another starch, another kind of potato, and a noodle dish- or has it re-envisioning or something new. Going for steak and baked potato feels like a totally different game.

(I have no idea why I'm capitalizing poultry types; the ham and mac and cheese aren't at our table, but I've been in the south for a while and it would feel odd to leave them off the list).

funny thing, my family has since before I was born had the same menu for all major holidays with very minor changes here and there... I can tell you with 99% certainty what we had any year for Christmas, new years, thanks giving or Easter. However we still have a month long (already started) discussion every year AS IF we were going to change things...

My fiancé made the mistake of early in our relationship suggesting real change... a change I might add 3/4 of us would prefer. She wont make that mistake again...

 

[billd91]

I would argue that basic-2nd edition the classes had a sembelence of balance, but with spell casters edgeing out as levels went up. 3e was 100% caster supremacy. all those little annoying things that wizard player (clerics too but not as much) hated that held them back (haste ages you a year, % chance to learn spells, maxnumber of spells per level) and they then gave even more power to some casters (bards, clerics, others) but also over all changes to the system itself benfited casters (Spell DCs instead of class based saves, and HD continueing through 20+ levels, and Con mod to hp being higher) taking some of the drawback away like swapping magic resistance (% chance to just negate) to Spell Resistance (number you will get better and better at hitting as you level).

Good ol' unintended consequences. I'm sure the 3e designers thought they were doing a better job of balancing casters/non-casters in 3e with their changes. Everyone's saves increase at the same time, everyone advances at the same time, they created other structures like feats and probably estimated they (particularly a fighter's bonus feats) were more valuable than long term practice revealed, etc. And they got rid of things that annoyed players like haste aging a year, % chances to learn spells, max # of spells and that many had already stopped using (shades of the current debate over things like fixed ASIs). And, honestly, most of those changes probably didn't shift the needle much on class balance.
But then they also created other rule structure changes that didn't interact so well and really ripped the lid off caster imbalance - magic item creation/economy, particularly scrolls and wands.

by the time 4e came around enough of us (Yes, me, my group HATED 3e for caster supremacy and are mad about 5e bringing it back in someways) it was very much change not for changes sake but so people who want to play fighters and rogues BUT also be able to playa the same level as the cleric or wizard...

5e was a snap back (to tradition) in making it harder to make a non magic character that keeps up... and they doubled down on it by making almost everyone magic in some way...

I don't have a problem with viewing 4e's mechanical changes as largely being about change for a specific goal and not just change for change's sake - you make a decision and that may imply other changes to support it. But the more a design group talks about traditions/sacred cows being up for destruction, the more it starts to look like change for change's sake to observers. Moreover, when you look at setting and lore changes that 4e brought, you really do get into change for change's sake.

 

[HammerMan]

As far as "arguing" about 4E @HammerMan , I'm not. People like what they like. I burned out on 4E after a couple years of playing, you may have thought it was the best thing ever. I'm just trying to explain why some people felt the edition changed a lot of things for the sake of change. There are plenty of things that have changed that I thought changed for the better and others I do not. Editions of D&D are no different.

except in a thread where red moderator voice said to not discuss 4e to get back to tradition, and I have tried, you keep bringing up what you don't like about 4e, even if engaging that threatens others being told not to... So I am asking you, since we are not supposed to argue about what is or is not true of 4e, can we please drop 4e and focus on 1-3 and 5?

 

[HammerMan]

oreover, when you look at setting and lore changes that 4e brought, you really do get into change for change's sake.

if there is anything that feels like change for change sake all the time it is setting fluff... like most of us make our own anyway...

 

[Cadence]

funny thing, my family has since before I was born had the same menu for all major holidays with very minor changes here and there... I can tell you with 99% certainty what we had any year for Christmas, new years, thanks giving or Easter. However we still have a month long (already started) discussion every year AS IF we were going to change things...

My fiancé made the mistake of early in our relationship suggesting real change... a change I might add 3/4 of us would prefer. She wont make that mistake again...

Only two of our other holidays are vaguely well defined meal wise.

Our Christmas Eve dinner for 30+ years has been standing rib roast with strawberry pretzel salad as one of.the sides and a grasshopper (that is, chocolate mint) pie for dessert -- except for one year when the host (who hasn't hosted again) got Pizza and one year it was at a restaurant. There is periodic mumbling about changing the roast (people have the right to be wrong), but a bunch of folks like it and a bunch were ambivalent, so now someone usually brings a small portion of ham and someone else cooks a duck for those who want some. For the strawberry salad, it might only be because I took over making it that it is still there, but it gets eaten. The pie has several champions who will make one, but cherry cheesecake has happily joined as the usual second and most folks get both. Corned beef on St. Patrick's day is also a thing as far as the other holiday.

 

[payn]

Oh man this holiday meal chat is making me hungry!

My mother is a hound for traditions. I grumble about it every year (nobody else says anything cause they fear mother) about eating thanksgiving dinner at noon. Though thats always the time no matter what. Thats a tradition id happily jettison. The only food item that has to happen is ham on Easter Sunday. I dont mind because I like ham and dont eat it too often. I offered to make a leg 'o' lamb but that would not go over well. A few of my family (just a few) only eat select things and are not willing to try things they assume they don't like. This reminds me that I got to get some herbs for stuffing. I finally took that over from the grips of my Grandmother. She is sweet, but her stuffing sucks. A surprise because almost everything else she makes is great.

I read this story once about a guy looking into cooking recipes and how they are handed down. He saw this woman making a roast and she clipped the sides of the meat before putting it in a pot. The man asked her why she did that. "Thats how mom does it" was her answer. So, he went to her mother and asked her how she makes a roast. Sure enough she clips the sides off the meat before putting it in the pot. He asked her why, "thats how mom does it." So, he went to the grandmother and asked her how the tradition of clipping the sides of the meat started. She said, "my pot was too small to fit a full sized roast.". Sometimes tradition is just habit and we forget or never ask why.

 

[HammerMan]

She said, "my pot was too small to fit a full sized roast.". Sometimes tradition is just habit and we forget or never ask why.

very well put.

 

[Hussar]

Good ol' unintended consequences.

Snip

Moreover, when you look at setting and lore changes that 4e brought, you really do get into change for change's sake.

I’d buy this if 5e hadn’t made easily as many lore changes and is lionized for it.

Again, change for change’s sake is just another way of saying I don’t like this but trying to make it sound like an objective argument.

Tradition ONLY matters when someone doesn’t like the change.

 

[Cadence]

Again, change for change’s sake is just another way of saying I don’t like this but trying to make it sound like an objective argument.

It certainly can be. Do authors of properties like D&D, comic book series, Star Wars, etc...never chnge things for no purpose except to suit their own tastes with the hope that those who own the property will let them?

Tradition ONLY matters when someone doesn’t like the change.

Maybe also to people who also value the comfort of their fellow human beings and consider what they may like or be accustomed to?

 

[Dire Bare]

It certainly can be. Do authors of properties like D&D, comic book series, Star Wars, etc...never chnge things for no purpose except to suit their own tastes with the hope that those who own the property will let them?



Maybe also to people who also value the comfort of their fellow human beings and consider what they may like or be accustomed to?

Making a change to suit one's own tastes . . . is making a change for a reason. The author feels that their preference makes a better story or game.