D&D General Why is tradition (in D&D) important to you? [+]

[Oofta]

Before this thread, there were still tags for 4e. But it doesn't stop this cycle that we always seem to get caught up in. The only way to stop arguing about it is to stop arguing about it, and that only works if both sides can stop contributing to the symptoms. If people want to say good things about 4e, there should be a place to do that and its not with people who never miss a chance to say something bad every time they can.

FWIW I do respect your opinions. There's plenty of things I don't like about 4e, too. But you have given the game a chance, which is more than some will admit. And that is all most reasonable fans want. So thank you for your honesty. We have plenty others making claims with bad faith arguments and repeating baseless ideas they saw in a meme or something they see posted by someone else.

If you don't mind, there is one piece of advice I would like to offer: consider toning down your defense. The more you bring up how your opinions are valid, the harder it is to see the more substantial reasons that you are trying to protect. A lot of 4e fans have been dealing with less reasonable people for a long time, and that makes them skeptical. It doesn't make them right. But there's a reason for this, and its not your fault. I hope everyone understands how a vocal minority of bad faith actors has made this difficult for both sides.

I hope this message is received in the spirit that it is intended; that it helps give everyone a better understanding on all sides. We are all fans of D&D, and games, and everything that is related. Now more than ever, I'm beginning to believe that more editions and settings for one game is bad for the larger community. It divides everyone, forces systemic biases, and only benefits the company to continue selling less original products and more recycled content.

I know. I should really take this elsewhere. But it is long overdue and I don't want the conversation to start over in another thread.

I think 4E would have had reasonable continuing success if it had been A) given more development time and not rushed out the door and B) not been labelled D&D. Water under the bridge now.

 

[Gravenhurst48]

Why is it that the same conversation about 4e keeps coming up like this? Isn't anyone tired of living in 2009-2012 yet? If you don't like it, fine. I don't need to know your reasons, and you don't need my validation for them. It is perfectly acceptable to me if your reasons are perfectly acceptable to you, regardless how I feel about it.

And if you are a fan, great! I am, too. In fact, I have gone back to that system over everything else. Why? Because I am sick and tired of going along with everyone else's ideas of what I should or shouldn't like. I am tired of defending what I like to an audience of people who were never interested in learning more in the first place. What really upsets me is the fact that I (and anyone else) can't bring up my favorite edition in public, or around people who are supposed to be fans of D&D, without the risk of turning every conversation into this!

So I'm asking everyone. Please. If you're a fan of 4e, or actually want to know more about it, then let's go over to the new sub forum and talk about it. Stop wasting energy on this negativity. Don't let a company or a stranger online keep you from playing or talking about something you like.

I am working on some things over there, building a campaign, etc. But I feel like I am talking to myself mostly. I'm not expecting a huge audience but I know there are people who still like 4e. I see it in threads like this. I get messages from people who are essentially hiding because they feel attacked and ostracized. And for what? Because of the edition they like.

And if you don't like something I said, then please just ignore me. I don't come here to debate or argue, even though I get sucked into it more than I care to admit. I just want to enjoy D&D again. I suspect others do, too.

 

[Gravenhurst48]

Tradition is insofar important that you need to keep the identity of the product. If you change to much it is a new product under the old name.
So while 4e was mostly a well designed game overall it might just have been a little too revolutionary and broke with tradition in too many aspects.

I agree.

 

[Hussar]

True git off my lawn. Impressive.

 

[el-remmen]

Have some people forgotten this is a "+" thread?

 

[Gravenhurst48]

Have some people forgotten this is a "+" thread?

Please explain + thread.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I've noticed this come up in a number of discussions lately. Tradition in D&D is something I find really interesting. Sometimes, when changes are being made to D&D, one of the common arguments against change is the valuing of Tradition. For example, some folks may argue that Wizards of the Coast shouldn't change the name of something, stop using a rule, or publish a new setting instead of an old one because of Tradition.

For me, there are a few traditions that I think help define D&D, even if they don't make much sense. The six ability scores are a good example of this; if D&D were created now I doubt they would use such ambiguous names that can often define the same things, such as Intelligence and Wisdom. But without those six ability scores, D&D just doesn't feel like D&D.

On the other hand, tradition really doesn't hold much sway over me. Though I've been playing since 2e, I've really enjoyed seeing play restrictions (such as race/class restrictions, multiclass restrictions, etc) go by the wayside. I find changes really invigorating. And I've always used homebrewed campaign settings.

So I'm curious about those of you who really value Tradition in D&D. Why is it important to you? What value does it have?

Please keep in mind this is a + Thread. I honestly expect to disagree with a lot of folks who post here, but I'm not going to post those disagreements. Instead, I want to know more about perspectives that are different than mine!

for me, I am not hugely traditional when it comes to D&D: I enjoyed all editions through third (and third threw out lots of traditions, as did second). I think my attitude is more shaped by my interest in history and having a “Don’t throw the baby out with the bath water” mindset, or if you prefer, Chesterton’s fence that someone else mentioned. The edition that made me more wary of changes was 4Th. Because for me, it lost something that drew me to the game in all the changes it introduced. The value of tradition is having time tested things that work. Something about D&D does just work. What that is, can and should be debated. But having been in this hobby for decades and played countless RPGs, the thing I appreciate about D&D is something about it functions week to week more readily and easily than a lot of other games (and I prefer other games, as I don’t play much D&D anymore)

I think also there is value in a consistent framework and language over time. Every little change to that does make understanding older books harder, and creates a bit of a gulf across play generations

 

[el-remmen]

Please explain + thread.

It means a thread meant to garner people's positive opinions (tho they might differ in what they deem positive) and thus folks are asked to avoid bickering, sniping, judging others' tastes, etc. . .

 

[Gravenhurst48]

It means a thread meant to garner people's positive opinions (tho they might differ in what they deem positive) and thus folks are asked to avoid bickering, sniping, judging others' tastes, etc. . .

Oh, I see, my comment is not...positive enough? Well + is lame-oh, too sensitive, that is for sure. I go tweak my non-plus post to + standards. Be back in one jiffie.

 

[Baron Opal II]

So I'm curious about those of you who really value Tradition in D&D. Why is it important to you? What value does it have?

"Traditions" in D&D to me are the DM doesn't chip in for pizza or don't touch other people's dice but these in this bag are in common.

As for Game rules or structure, tradition is familiarity. I should be able to express a character or scenario in any edition, O-5e D&D. Now, obviously, there would be massive adjustments depending on which edition I was hopping to and from. But I should be able to approximate it if I wanted to run an older edition or bring a character forward. And, it really shouldn't look that different. You should be able to see the relation between the different editions.