D&D General Why is tradition (in D&D) important to you? [+]

[Umbran]

if you don't want to talk about it, don't bring it up

Mod Note:
That's not how this site operates. Within the rules, folks can speak their minds, engage, and disengage as they wish. His mentioning a thing does not entitle you to an argument.

So, now you get to make your own point, independent of any input from him, or let it go. Those are your choices. Badgering folks for choosing to not engage with you doesn't make you look good to anyone, and gets you red text and stuff. So, it is probably better to move on.

 

[Neonchameleon]

2e had a bit of that (not as much) with prof... remember in 2e you didn't know every (or almost every) weapon, you started with 4... so having Handaxe great axe, long bow, shield bash was different then longsword dagger cross bow kick
(later there were weapon groups we used to write it as Bladesx3 or Cleavex3... it cost 3 profs to get a whole catagory... and ALOT of our fighters would start with Bladesx3 longbow... then at 3rd level take specilization in one of them)

In 2e as a fighter you started out as proficient in three weapons if you wanted to specialise. The problem is that they were decidedly not equal; a battle axe did 1-8 damage against small or medium creatures and 1-8 against large, while a longsword did 1-8 against medium creatures and 1-12 against large ones. And there were more swords on the loot tables than axes. So although fighters could choose to be proficient in battle axes and give up the chance for longswords they almost never did.

When this was changed in 3.0 so roughly equivalent seeming weapons were balanced and the only meaningful split became simple/martial I'm not aware that anyone raised their voice to defend this tradition. (I'm sure someone did somewhere).

But to me the parts of tradition that are important are those that make it easier to get on the same page and understand each other without having to explain nearly as much. Having different weapon stats is good because it encourages people to pick from those weapons. Having some almost strictly better than others means people won't take them.

And a big part of getting people, especially outsiders, on the same page that no one mentions is just how video gamey D&D is. Most of that is stuff that computer RPGs took from D&D (and have been taking from D&D right back to Colossal Cave Adventure and early MUDs in the mid 70s). Keeping these elements makes it far easier both for longstanding D&D players and for newbies to play together comfortably - and that's the part of tradition I find important.

 

[Gravenhurst48]

Because the only people who watch it now are old people who want it to play exactly as they remember it when they were kids.

But all the young people of today realize the current game of baseball sucks because most of those traditions are ridiculous and make the game longer and less interesting than the 37,000 other things they could be doing with their time. Which means the old people can still enjoy their old game, but should be prepared for it to dry up and evaporate as each of those old people begin to die off.

The difference with D&D is that its control was gained by the young people when the old people messed up handling it, and thus they were able to change it and save it from itself. Which is why it is still a popular past-time that has become one with the current times, even if its experience differs from the experience the old people remember.

Sounds very familiar, like the Olympians defeating the Titans. Out with the old, in with the new, and be damnded what the old think yeah?

 

[Gravenhurst48]

If the next James Bond was the greatest basketball player and the story a sports film, a lot of people would be disappointed. Though that is entirely the difference between films and TTRPGs. There is only one power house in the industry that enjoys a major pool of available players at any given time or place for people. So this constant fight for what it should be is constantly waged. Tradition is often the whipping post for D&D not changing fast enough for some folks, and also the tent post for those who want no change at all. I believe going forward its going to be design by survey says and thats looking good in traditions favor.

Yes, a survey would be fair, but fairness has not been given to veteran gamers of older editions. 5E is wholeheartedly, stealing away from traditional anything and moving to a specific market. Even if that market is not interested in playing D&D, WOTC has the marketing power to change the traditional face of what we all come to expect what Dungeons & Dragons is based from, old school fantasy tropes, folk tales, mythology, archeology.... I get it, a new age means new faces I dont relate too, and that is why tradition is important, to keep old timers interested too who we can relate to, or we move on or play older editions that do relate to us. Even though the rules are just rules and can be adapted to whatever floats your boat, everything now does not relate to me anymore in 5E. Sad and true & I accept it because there are My Little Pony frakn D&D figures now. No more He-man, Conan, Gi-Joe action figures. Sigh.
I quit playing D&D when 4E came out, returned because of others for 5E and I am done. No more. Not interested. I don't need it. I got a library collection to use from old timer days & that's fine because the best writing came from before 4E anyways as the good stuff today is not from WOTC, it's from Paizo, DRUVE THRU RPG, Kickstarter, Ptolus, DCC, and Level Up, and so on, etc.. Some traditions do die and become anything but what it once was, kinda like 5E. And it hurts. And it's sad.
(Psst, I purchased the damn D&D ponies for my kid - ahem me - cuz we love the show, and I hope to create a game to introduce my kids to the classic D&D, so I am open to new beginnings. "And a meteor is hurtling down from the sky towards you. What do your ponies do? Too late, the meteor hits the ground near you and explodes sending debris all into your manes. Save! After the dust settles, it's Discord who emerges from the smoking rock that's split open. "Oh, do I have an adventure for you, my Little Ponies!")

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Tradition is insofar important that you need to keep the identity of the product. If you change to much it is a new product under the old name.
So while 4e was mostly a well designed game overall it might just have been a little too revolutionary and broke with tradition in too many aspects.

 

[payn]

Yes, a survey would be fair, but fairness has not been given to veteran gamers of older editions. 5E is wholeheartedly, stealing away from traditional anything and moving to a specific market. Even if that market is not interested in playing D&D, WOTC has the marketing power to change the traditional face of what we all come to expect what Dungeons & Dragons is based from, old school fantasy tropes, folk tales, mythology, archeology.... I get it, a new age means new faces I dont relate too, and that is why tradition is important, to keep old timers interested too who we can relate to, or we move on or play older editions that do relate to us. Even though the rules are just rules and can be adapted to whatever floats your boat, everything now does not relate to me anymore in 5E. Sad and true & I accept it because there are My Little Pony frakn D&D figures now. No more He-man, Conan, Gi-Joe action figures. Sigh.
I quit playing D&D when 4E came out, returned because of others for 5E and I am done. No more. Not interested. I don't need it. I got a library collection to use from old timer days & that's fine because the best writing came from before 4E anyways as the good stuff today is not from WOTC, it's from Paizo, DRUVE THRU RPG, Kickstarter, Ptolus, DCC, and Level Up, and so on, etc.. Some traditions do die and become anything but what it once was, kinda like 5E. And it hurts. And it's sad.
(Psst, I purchased the damn D&D ponies for my kid - ahem me - cuz we love the show, and I hope to create a game to introduce my kids to the classic D&D, so I am open to new beginnings. "And a meteor is hurtling down from the sky towards you. What do your ponies do? Too late, the meteor hits the ground near you and explodes sending debris all into your manes. Save! After the dust settles, it's Discord who emerges from the smoking rock that's split open. "Oh, do I have an adventure for you, my Little Ponies!")

I thought the my little pony was a 3rd party Pathfinder thing? I wasn't part of every WOTC survey, but none of the ones I did had any questions about ponies or G.I. Joes.

 

[Jacob Lewis]

Why is it that the same conversation about 4e keeps coming up like this? Isn't anyone tired of living in 2009-2012 yet? If you don't like it, fine. I don't need to know your reasons, and you don't need my validation for them. It is perfectly acceptable to me if your reasons are perfectly acceptable to you, regardless how I feel about it.

And if you are a fan, great! I am, too. In fact, I have gone back to that system over everything else. Why? Because I am sick and tired of going along with everyone else's ideas of what I should or shouldn't like. I am tired of defending what I like to an audience of people who were never interested in learning more in the first place. What really upsets me is the fact that I (and anyone else) can't bring up my favorite edition in public, or around people who are supposed to be fans of D&D, without the risk of turning every conversation into this!

So I'm asking everyone. Please. If you're a fan of 4e, or actually want to know more about it, then let's go over to the new sub forum and talk about it. Stop wasting energy on this negativity. Don't let a company or a stranger online keep you from playing or talking about something you like.

I am working on some things over there, building a campaign, etc. But I feel like I am talking to myself mostly. I'm not expecting a huge audience but I know there are people who still like 4e. I see it in threads like this. I get messages from people who are essentially hiding because they feel attacked and ostracized. And for what? Because of the edition they like.

And if you don't like something I said, then please just ignore me. I don't come here to debate or argue, even though I get sucked into it more than I care to admit. I just want to enjoy D&D again. I suspect others do, too.

 

[Oofta]

Why is it that the same conversation about 4e keeps coming up like this? Isn't anyone tired of living in 2009-2012 yet? If you don't like it, fine. I don't need to know your reasons, and you don't need my validation for them. It is perfectly acceptable to me if your reasons are perfectly acceptable to you, regardless how I feel about it.

And if you are a fan, great! I am, too. In fact, I have gone back to that system over everything else. Why? Because I am sick and tired of going along with everyone else's ideas of what I should or shouldn't like. I am tired of defending what I like to an audience of people who were never interested in learning more in the first place. What really upsets me is the fact that I (and anyone else) can't bring up my favorite edition in public, or around people who are supposed to be fans of D&D, without the risk of turning every conversation into this!

So I'm asking everyone. Please. If you're a fan of 4e, or actually want to know more about it, then let's go over to the new sub forum and talk about it. Stop wasting energy on this negativity. Don't let a company or a stranger online keep you from playing or talking about something you like.

I am working on some things over there, building a campaign, etc. But I feel like I am talking to myself mostly. I'm not expecting a huge audience but I know there are people who still like 4e. I see it in threads like this. I get messages from people who are essentially hiding because they feel attacked and ostracized. And for what? Because of the edition they like.

And if you don't like something I said, then please just ignore me. I don't come here to debate or argue, even though I get sucked into it more than I care to admit. I just want to enjoy D&D again. I suspect others do, too.

This thread got sidetracked by the 4E discussion before there was a 4E specific forum. FWIW there were aspects of 4E I liked and aspects I did not. Just because I prefer 5E's approach to 4E's is not a reflection one way or another on anyone else's preferences.

 

[Jacob Lewis]

This thread got sidetracked by the 4E discussion before there was a 4E specific forum. FWIW there were aspects of 4E I liked and aspects I did not. Just because I prefer 5E's approach to 4E's is not a reflection one way or another on anyone else's preferences.

Before this thread, there were still tags for 4e. But it doesn't stop this cycle that we always seem to get caught up in. The only way to stop arguing about it is to stop arguing about it, and that only works if both sides can stop contributing to the symptoms. If people want to say good things about 4e, there should be a place to do that and its not with people who never miss a chance to say something bad every time they can.

FWIW I do respect your opinions. There's plenty of things I don't like about 4e, too. But you have given the game a chance, which is more than some will admit. And that is all most reasonable fans want. So thank you for your honesty. We have plenty others making claims with bad faith arguments and repeating baseless ideas they saw in a meme or something they see posted by someone else.

If you don't mind, there is one piece of advice I would like to offer: consider toning down your defense. The more you bring up how your opinions are valid, the harder it is to see the more substantial reasons that you are trying to protect. A lot of 4e fans have been dealing with less reasonable people for a long time, and that makes them skeptical. It doesn't make them right. But there's a reason for this, and its not your fault. I hope everyone understands how a vocal minority of bad faith actors has made this difficult for both sides.

I hope this message is received in the spirit that it is intended; that it helps give everyone a better understanding on all sides. We are all fans of D&D, and games, and everything that is related. Now more than ever, I'm beginning to believe that more editions and settings for one game is bad for the larger community. It divides everyone, forces systemic biases, and only benefits the company to continue selling less original products and more recycled content.

I know. I should really take this elsewhere. But it is long overdue and I don't want the conversation to start over in another thread.

 

[Fifinjir]

I am, if I’m being honest, not that creative. Give me a blank slate to write on and I’ll get nowhere. Give me something half-written and I’ll spend hours of head-time filling in the blanks.