D&D General How do you like your ASIs?

[Lyxen]

It doesn't really matter how many HP or how many encounters. 20% more damage*

First, it's not 20%. When you take a d8 as a basis, a change of modifier from +2 to +3 it's more like 15%. The value of 20% is sometimes used to integrate, on top of that, the bonus to hit.

This effect does not only appear over large numbers. That's nonsense.

No, it's not, please read on the subject. Yes, with large numbers, it will likely converge, but conversely, with low number of stats, it means that the noise of the random factor will be a much larger part of the result obtained, and in any case there is no predictability over individual events.

This is especially true when comparing a d20 with a measly bonus of +1. The luck of the dice, but also the actual situation and tactics applied matter much more than a +1 in terms of damage dealt. Not to mention the fact that there is always the overkill factor (death at 0 hp which comes to complicate matters even more).

 

[Maxperson]

For me, it is insufficient to frame this only in terms of DPR. I normally notice in game consequences such as

• A bard will have an easily noticed additional use of inspiration each rest
• A barbarian taking Con will have an easily noticed additional 5 HP at 5th level
• Taking Wis, a character will have an easily noticed higher passive Wisdom (Perception)
• A wizard taking Int will have an easily noticed additional spell in mind
• A fighter taking Strength will always jump further

And in combat, I usually notice consequences like

• A 5th level warlock will have an easily noticed additional point of damage on each bolt
• Characters in light and medium armor have a noticeably higher AC

Two additional factors really crystallise it for me. One is that we quite often have two players with the same class, and the difference between them can be very distinct - for example our dragonborn bard versus our half-elf - using fixed ASIs that is. And second this is not pick one, it is very frequently pick two abilities to be bumped higher.

You'll notice it on the front end with some things, but how much do those things really matter to game play. The extra inspiration could help someone a bit. The extra 5 hit points might make a small difference and are really only noticeable if you don't roll for hit points. If you do roll, you will generally be able get the same amount of hit point with or without that extra hit point per die. Passive perception is noticeable on the paper, but not really in game play. You'll perceive a few more things over the course of a few games, if passive perception is even needed. The additional spell is noticeable when you take it, but unless you count and recount your number of spells a lot, it's one of those things that gets lost. Jumping doesn't come up that often and the additional foot will not often be useful. The additional damage is what I already mentioned. It's 1 point and you aren't going to notice it on the back end of combat except for rarely. Avoiding the occasional extra hit isn't going to be noticeable, because the DM isn't going to be missing you by exactly 1 very often.

When I say not noticeable, I'm talking in game play, not on the sheet where it's written down. During game play the amount it helps will be trivial at best.

 

[Maxperson]

You could hit 1000 HP at level 6 (with an inept DM).

The real issue is the semi bloated HP along with the 6-8 encounter per day game design.
A DM who uses a lot of high CR enemies has tons of HP. The DMG has you run through an expected 900-1200 HP a day if you follow the chart at level 6. If you fight 6 cyclopsi, you are burning through 828 HP. Even if you go with lower CR monsters and throw in trash, the HP per encounter goes from 75-150 HP 6 to 8 times.

Once you realize this as a play, it nudges your damage dealers to want as much damage as possible. And if your tanks rely on scores, it nudges them as well.

It isn't required. However after level 6 and 7, you might really feel the need to buff your primary if you didn't start with a 16 nor buff it by then.

Hit it at level 1, level 6, level 10 or levle 20. It doesn't change the fact that it's still 1 measly point of damage extra per hit, and 1 extra hit per 20 attacks(3-4 fights). It's trivial.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

and not something I usually give much of an eff about.

I read this as "and not something I usually give much of an ELF about." Which, to some here, might just be a naughty word all the same.

 

[Bill Zebub]

The "noise" of the swinginess of the d20 means that the statistical impact of the +1 will be hard to observe. And that is true over small numbers or large numbers.

But "hard for humans to observe" is different from "less than the math says"

 

[Maxperson]

And this amount depends on the GM, the playstyle (if you fight once per session, the damage difference will be felt less than with five fights per session), and the individual behavior (a few super optimizers will be more disruptive in a group of badly designed chars than if everyone is optimized...)

Even if it's 5 fights a session, it's not going to really be noticeable. Let's see you get into 5 fights and hit 4 times a fight, getting an extra 2 hit in. That's 30 extra points of damage spread over 5-40 opponents. You aren't going to see the effect of that. It's too small. 1 fight or 20, you still don't see it due to the number of hit points 5e monsters have and the sheer number of those high hit point monsters you have to fight. It still amounts to 1 extra point per hit and the rare extra hit.

I also feel that it's natural to want to play "heroes who are good at doing their thing". When the range of ability is 3-18, having 12-13 s average, including the +1 invariant human bonus, so 14-15 is slightly above average and competent start at 16, good at 18 and best of the best at 20. And who would be "slightly better than average at being a warrior?"

Sorry, but "my guy doing 1 point more damage than your guy" does not equate to "my guy is competent and yours is only slightly above average." Oh, and the average is 10.5(for the population), not 12-13. 12-13 is average for an exceptional adventurer. So 14-15 is is 4 to 5 points higher than the average warrior.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

You'll notice it on the front end with some things, but how much do those things really matter to game play. The extra inspiration could help someone a bit. The extra 5 hit points might make a small difference and are really only noticeable if you don't roll for hit points. If you do roll, you will generally be able get the same amount of hit point with or without that extra hit point per die. Passive perception is noticeable on the paper, but not really in game play. You'll perceive a few more things over the course of a few games, if passive perception is even needed. The additional spell is noticeable when you take it, but unless you count and recount your number of spells a lot, it's one of those things that gets lost. Jumping doesn't come up that often and the additional foot will not often be useful. The additional damage is what I already mentioned. It's 1 point and you aren't going to notice it on the back end of combat except for rarely. Avoiding the occasional extra hit isn't going to be noticeable, because the DM isn't going to be missing you by exactly 1 very often.

When I say not noticeable, I'm talking in game play, not on the sheet where it's written down. During game play the amount it helps will be trivial at best.

I'm with you on this.

And, FWIW, this is not only an argument against the stance that a PC "needs" that sweet sixteen over a 14 in their main stat to be effective but also an argument against the stance that taking that sweet sixteen over a 14 in their main stat is somehow the path to powergaming. Truth is, the +1 is barely noticeable over the course of a session. Either way.

 

[clearstream]

When I say not noticeable, I'm talking in game play, not on the sheet where it's written down. During game play the amount it helps will be trivial at best.

That doesn't match my experience. When I see characters with lower rather than higher numbers in play alongside characters with higher rather than lower numbers, it couldn't be clearer which is which. With our bards in OOTA, the dragonborn and half-elf leaned into the competition between them, and the recognisable fact that the dragonborn was the noticeably less-successful bard. That made emerged quite a nice narrative, but I can't say that all players would be as equanimous.

Reflecting on that, maybe the issue of what is noticeable is more one around overshadowing, because that is one context where it becomes more than usually noticeable. Of course supporting my contention that the amount it helps in play is non-trivial.

 

[Maxperson]

Oh yes it is.

5th edition 100% has encounter and adventures design guidance and was designed so this guidances works.

Right, but those are not based off of a 14, 16 or 18 in prime stat. They are based on level of adventurer.

 

[Scribe]

So "required" means "these ability scores are required in order to escape the grindiness entailed by the PHB / DMG baseline for encounters at mid and late levels'?

As interesting as this is, if we deviate from the expectations set by the encounter/CR design, then this quickly devolves into 'at my table' and no definition can be found.