D&D 5E On Representation and Roleplaying

[Umbran]

Does that mean you think it's also a bad idea to run a Greek/Egypt/India-inspired setting, or anything else that's not based either on your personal experience, or draws from no real-world inspirations?

So, one major philosophy going about in the space of prose fiction is that folks who are not extremely well educated about a culture, probably should not write a novel about that culture. So, for example, if I am a white male heterosexual author, if I am writing a 1920s detective novel, I probably don't want to set it in, and have it revolve around, Harlem of that era. I probably don't know enough or have perspective to do a good job of it.

However, if I write that 1920s detective novel, I most certainly should have African American characters in it. They should be present in the fiction, written to avoid stereotypes. I should just avoid trying to tell an extensive narrative of what being African American in the 1920s was really like.

We can then consider what the analog for us, in RPGs, should be. Perhaps it may be that we shouldn't try to directly emulate the mythologies of other cultures, but we can present elements of them?

We live in a time where some of this burden might lift a bit, as people from these other cultures enter the RPG space. There are things like Coyote & Crow coming out that are written by people from a minority culture, with a mind to allowing those of us who aren't to run and engage with the material. I think picking up something like Coyote & Crow, and following the author's guidance on how to use the material, might be a fine way to include such stuff in your gaming.

 

[ad_hoc]

yes, but how does it make them feel represented what is that like?

In RotFM there is a character who uses they/them pronouns.

Nothing else about their gender is mentioned but that is good.

Having that representation without it being a plot point is great.

It both acknowledges that non-binary people exist and sends a message that this game is for us too.

It was handled no differently than if the character went by he or she which is the way to do it.

One troubling thing in fiction is that the default is assumed to be straight white male and if diverging from that the author is expected to have a reason for it. That is a huge issue. Other people can't just exist without who they are being seen as other and a special thing.

Does that make sense?

 

[Mannahnin]

yes, but how does it make them feel represented what is that like?

It's a subjective experience, but generally, lots of folks have talked about how the experience of seeing or hearing about a protagonist or positive character who shares demographic qualities with themselves inspires them. That it creates a feeling of "I could do that" or "I could be heroic".

Whoopi Goldberg's often told the story of how seeing Nichelle Nichols as Lt. Uhura on Star Trek was such a powerful experience- seeing a black woman on a popular TV show as a skilled and trusted bridge officer on a space ship! Instead of as a maid, which was almost the only role you'd see black women in prior to that time. Nichelle Nicols, in turn, talked about how she had actually considered leaving the show, but Martin Luther King Jr. himself asked her not to, convincing her that she was a powerful role model playing that character, and an inspiration to a lot of other kids.

I just saw a post from someone I know who was sickly as a child who recalled reading about how President Teddy Roosevelt had also been sickly and asthmatic as a child, but was able to exercise and became strong and healthy, serving in the military and being famously energetic, and even becoming President. My friend also grew up to serve and to command as an officer in the military, and to become a very physically (and emotionally, from what I've seen) strong human being. Another friend also chimed in that, having been asthmatic as a child, as a kid he also found Roosevelt's story inspiring and that it gave him hope.

I've also heard that historically a lot of BIPOC folks get into anime and comic books because mainstream mass media (film and television) has historically had fewer positive POC role models.

But the issues involved with Redmayne taking a role as a transgendered person are not the same as someone at a table roleplaying, say, a gender-fluid elf.**

Tiny grammatical note on a great post. "Transgendered" is not currently the preferred form. Transgender is generally used.

 

[J-H]

It would be hubris for me to think it would give the player an experience akin to living in those times and places, better understanding the people of those times. What would be a bad idea would be to use more contemporary settings and people as fodder for an RPG under the guise of experiencing their cultures.

I understand this mindset as "If we can't include them with perfect accuracy in the experience or from personal experience, then including them will be too flawed or offensive, so we shouldn't try to include them."

I have seen this play out in the broader American culture with "These representations are stereotypes, so we should cut them entirely to be safe, even if most people don't object." As a specific example, many common/prominent representations of Native Americans have been cancelled or removed, and so Native Americans are now less included, less represented, and less visible in popular culture as a result. They're basically the forgotten minority and it's incredibly sad.

If you're a white guy and want to write a novel about a fictionalized version of Harriet Tubman, Wizardess of the Underground Railroad... you shouldn't.
If you're an Indian woman and want to write a James Bond fanfiction, well, you're not a man, not white, and not British, so you probably shouldn't write that either.
If you're a Nigerian journalist and want to write a novel about what it's like being an Uighur in western China, you're the wrong color, religion, culture, and language group, so that novel probably doesn't get written either.

The focus on the identity/group of the author, rather than the quality and accuracy of the material, causes self-censorship and reduces the breadth of material available for everyone to enjoy. It reduces how often people can actually represent foreign/minority/"other" groups in their writing. I think it is a wrong and harmful approach.

 

[Mind of tempest]

In RotFM there is a character who uses they/them pronouns.

Nothing else about their gender is mentioned but that is good.

Having that representation without it being a plot point is great.

It both acknowledges that non-binary people exist and sends a message that this game is for us too.

It was handled no differently than if the character went by he or she which is the way to do it.

One troubling thing in fiction is that the default is assumed to be straight white male and if diverging from that the author is expected to have a reason for it. That is a huge issue. Other people can't just exist without who they are being seen as other and a special thing.

Does that make sense?

but why does representation help is it some kind of connection or validation thing as either of those things are utterly alien to me, does this make sense I see how it show people off and that they are part of a thing but I fail to see why they would care to begin with is my failure, can that be explained?

It's a subjective experience, but generally, lots of folks have talked about how the experience of seeing or hearing about a protagonist or positive character who shares demographic qualities with themselves inspires them. That it creates a feeling of "I could do that" or "I could be heroic".

Whoopi Goldberg's often told the story of how seeing Nichelle Nichols as Lt. Uhura on Star Trek was such a powerful experience- seeing a black woman on a popular TV show as a skilled and trusted bridge officer on a space ship! Instead of as a maid, which was almost the only role you'd see black women in prior to that time. Nichelle Nicols, in turn, talked about how she had actually considered leaving the show, but Martin Luther King Jr. himself asked her not to, convincing her that she was a powerful role model playing that character, and an inspiration to a lot of other kids.

I just saw a post from someone I know who was sickly and asthmatic as a child who recalled reading about how President Teddy Roosevelt had also been sickly and asthmatic as a child, but was able to exercise and became strong and healthy, serving in the military and being famously energetic, and even becoming President. My friend also grew up to serve and to command as an officer in the military, and to become a very physically (and emotionally, from what I've seen) strong human being.

Another friend also chimed in that, having been asthmatic as a child, as a kid he also found Roosevelt's story inspiring and that it gave him hope.

I've also heard that historically a lot of BIPOC folks get into anime and comic books because mainstream mass media (film and television) has historically had fewer positive POC role models.


Tiny grammatical note on a great post. "Transgendered" is not currently the preferred form. Transgender is generally used.

people got the sense they could do something because a charter on tv was sort of similar to them that seems very alien to me, I watched tv to get away from myself not be inspired nothing ever inspired conviction in myself.

 

[wicked cool]

I don't think RPGs have real value in experiencing something similar to a real-world experience. They're fun, distracting.
As the GM, I can't give a contemporary Midwestern white male player the experience of being an African American man in the 1920s American South, for example. To do so and think it I can convey that to any valid extent is hubris.
If a player wants to explore different thoughts or experiences, they ought to read a book or watch a film by appropriate creators. Unless the GM has specific experience with a culture (like, I could run a game about growing up in the suburbs in the 1980s), it's best to stick with elves and dragons.

agree with most. the 80's part i disagree-im running Call of Cthulhu right now. it takes place in 1930's for most part. My job as a Dm/Keeper etc is to teach my players about that time period ( i doubt theres any on this board that lived during that time period). As a keeper i had to do some research on Massachusetts/Vermont New Hampshire etc . What was the area like. How much was a hamburger . How easy was it to get a car etc
Thats part of being a DM.

That was something that helped the Captain Marvel/Stranger Things movie. Somebody did a little research on 80's etc

Id be curious if say at a convention or a big venue if things that some allow at their tables would be allowed there. Would you roleplay as man if you were a woman (vice versa) or a pronoun if you dont represent them. At my personal table i had a fellow player that roleplayed a woman and i saw the gradual process of them becoming a woman in real life. I never asked them but i couldnt roleplay as either. I wouldnt want to offend and just like the experience on the train i would feel ashamed

Back to the 80's for a minute. I was big into rap which is very different from todays in language and was very violent/political etc . Id drive around playing certain music blasting it but today i cant imagine that being acceptable.

 

[Vaalingrade]

I understand this mindset as "If we can't include them with perfect accuracy in the experience or from personal experience, then including them will be too flawed or offensive, so we shouldn't try to include them."

I have seen this play out in the broader American culture with "These representations are stereotypes, so we should cut them entirely to be safe, even if most people don't object." As a specific example, many common/prominent representations of Native Americans have been cancelled or removed, and so Native Americans are now less included, less represented, and less visible in popular culture as a result. They're basically the forgotten minority and it's incredibly sad.

This is not letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. This is people being too lazy to even try being better and try to, ya know, NOT name you sports teams slurs, or having a cartoon mascot that accentuates centuries of insults against people and instead throw up their hands and give up because if they can't do the horrible thing, they're all out of ideas.

 

[ad_hoc]

agree with most. the 80's part i disagree-im running Call of Cthulhu right now. it takes place in 1930's for most part. My job as a Dm/Keeper etc is to teach my players about that time period ( i doubt theres any on this board that lived during that time period). As a keeper i had to do some research on Massachusetts/Vermont New Hampshire etc . What was the area like. How much was a hamburger . How easy was it to get a car etc
Thats part of being a DM.

That was something that helped the Captain Marvel/Stranger Things movie. Somebody did a little research on 80's etc

Id be curious if say at a convention or a big venue if things that some allow at their tables would be allowed there. Would you roleplay as man if you were a woman (vice versa) or a pronoun if you dont represent them. At my personal table i had a fellow player that roleplayed a woman and i saw the gradual process of them becoming a woman in real life. I never asked them but i couldnt roleplay as either. I wouldnt want to offend and just like the experience on the train i would feel ashamed

Back to the 80's for a minute. I was big into rap which is very different from todays in language and was very violent/political etc . Id drive around playing certain music blasting it but today i cant imagine that being acceptable.

Just a note that your friend was always a woman.

Probably what is meant here is that she changed her gender presentation.

 

[Retreater]

I understand this mindset as "If we can't include them with perfect accuracy in the experience or from personal experience, then including them will be too flawed or offensive, so we shouldn't try to include them."

Being "included" is vastly different than centering your entire campaign and/or character concept on real world cultures. Being "included" is different than claiming playing a character with dark skin gives a white player the understanding of what it's like to be a POC.
So, yes, I will have darker-skinned NPCs, NPCs of different genders and sexual preferences. But I won't claim that playing them makes me understand what it's like to not be a white, middle-aged, middle-American dude.

 

[payn]

I understand this mindset as "If we can't include them with perfect accuracy in the experience or from personal experience, then including them will be too flawed or offensive, so we shouldn't try to include them."

I have seen this play out in the broader American culture with "These representations are stereotypes, so we should cut them entirely to be safe, even if most people don't object." As a specific example, many common/prominent representations of Native Americans have been cancelled or removed, and so Native Americans are now less included, less represented, and less visible in popular culture as a result. They're basically the forgotten minority and it's incredibly sad.

If you're a white guy and want to write a novel about a fictionalized version of Harriet Tubman, Wizardess of the Underground Railroad... you shouldn't.
If you're an Indian woman and want to write a James Bond fanfiction, well, you're not a man, not white, and not British, so you probably shouldn't write that either.
If you're a Nigerian journalist and want to write a novel about what it's like being an Uighur in western China, you're the wrong color, religion, culture, and language group, so that novel probably doesn't get written either.

The focus on the identity/group of the author, rather than the quality and accuracy of the material, causes self-censorship and reduces the breadth of material available for everyone to enjoy. It reduces how often people can actually represent foreign/minority/"other" groups in their writing. I think it is a wrong and harmful approach.

I think a reframing of these topics is what folks are after. It's not that a white guy cant write about Harlem or the African American experience, they should include those elements in stories if relevant. What they shouldn't do is write a story about being an African American from Harlem when the story is entirely about being such.