D&D 5E On Representation and Roleplaying

[jmartkdr2]

I remember a time when I first started playing it was "role" playing to "be the dwarf" or the "elf" or the "fighter." You didn't need accents (pet peeve, it's not role-playing), acting, or a lengthy backstory. "Role-play" was simple(r). You just showed up with a sheet and became something different, for a time, than you were.

I worry, however, that podcasts and live-streaming have inadvertently created the expectation you need to act, or that role-playing is more complicated than simply showing up with a sheet and playing a "role." Feels like it puts pressure to "perform" that wasn't there before.

I would argue that Acting (voices, gestures) and descriptive text (ie detailing what it looks like when you cast a spell) are good for roleplaying, even if they are distinct concepts. Acting is good for immersion (keeping your mind's eye in the fiction) and immersion is good for roleplaying (thinking in character).

BUT, of course that means in most cases acting isn't a goal, it's simply a tool to help you reach the goal.

 

[payn]

Yeah, I have to wonder if a fair number of people (even non-Asian) didn't find that cringeworthy even at the time. But over-the-top racial stereotypes were still a big thing in comedy, so...

I read a thing about the movie Short Circuit and the actor who went brownface feels real bad about it. Originally, he got the part as a white guy and for some reason the director asked if he could do a scientist from India instead. At the time the actor was young and looking for work and this kind of thing wasnt frowned upon sadly, so he did it.

These kinds of stories are helpful looking forward and actors protesting the ideas of racial caricatures in media.

 

[Mind of tempest]

I read a thing about the movie Short Circuit and the actor who went brownface feels real bad about it. Originally, he got the part as a white guy and for some reason the director asked if he could do a scientist from India instead. At the time the actor was young and looking for work and this kind of thing wasnt frowned upon sadly, so he did it.

These kinds of stories are helpful looking forward and actors protesting the ideas of racial caricatures in media.

even I the deeply sheltered can see that the past acting seems super messed up and find the more modern system better.

 

[toucanbuzz]

But then, if you came to my table back in the 80s, you'd have found the expectation that being "the fighter" wasn't quite what we wanted in our players - we were already trying to do more full and individual personalities even back then.

BUT, of course that means in most cases acting isn't a goal, it's simply a tool to help you reach the goal.

I like this combo of quotes. Immersion as a tool versus an expectation so players, especially ones new to the game, feel less pressure when joining the game table but can, over time, have a better experience.

 

[ad_hoc]

Repeating a couple things for emphasis:

It is okay if you don't understand. Just listen to and believe marginalized peoples.

It is perfectly okay to "screw up". Most people don't have a problem with someone doing something that they didn't even realize wasn't a good thing to do or didn't have the perspective for it or whatever.

What is important is that a person listens and tries to do better next time.

If someone is worried about how they are representing someone in game either as NPC or PC I encourage them to post and talk about it.

Some people may say that it wasn't a great way to go about it but they're not judging, just giving some info so they can know better going forward.

(This is different than expecting labour from marginalized people to educate. Lots of stuff can be found on Google. But if you just put it out there and someone freely replies that is cool.)

 

[Umbran]

That's part of the issue. As long as you have cultures that are going to have traits that mean some of them are going to seem better than others to players, its going to seem like someone is being slammed.

That is a problem with willfully approaching culture in "broad strokes". In the real world, cultures are all mixed bags, or almost all are, anyway. But you will tend to lose that with broad strokes.

I get the distinction but, well, not so sure that in my example the Welsh would agree with you.

So, what do you think the goal is - to make a thing so that nobody could ever voice any objection at all? That not a single person in Wales could possibly look at your game material and scowl at it? That's not going to happen. If that's the goal, we can stop discussing it as being impossible to achieve.

I, personally, think there's a far more useful way to consider use - am I breaking Wheaton's Law? Am I being a jerk about this? I don't need every single person in Wales to like my work to assure myself that I'm not being a jerk.

 

[Voranzovin]

The focus on the identity/group of the author, rather than the quality and accuracy of the material, causes self-censorship and reduces the breadth of material available for everyone to enjoy. It reduces how often people can actually represent foreign/minority/"other" groups in their writing. I think it is a wrong and harmful approach.

So, my personal experience of representation isn't about ethnicity. I'm an Ashkenazic Jew, and I'd be perfectly happy if I never saw anyone with my particular ethnic background in fiction ever again (not that this is likely).

But I have experienced its importance in other ways. I have Crohn's disease, diabetes, asthma, and a herniated disk in my back. These conditions are pretty well controlled now, but that wasn't true in my twenties. They could be extremely debilitating, and I recall thinking of myself as, essentially, less than human.

One of the things that really helped me through that time was the Vorkosigan series, by Lois McMaster Bujold. The series is a space opera with elements of military sci-fi, but rather then starring a physically capable space adventurer type, it features Miles Vorkosigan, who was born with physical deformities and can't even run without risking a broken bone. This is sometimes an advantage to him, as the Bond villain-types he goes up against frequently underestimate him until it's too late. Seeing someone who had debilitating medical conditions saving the day actually helped restore my sense of self. Moreover, I would say that the series is very much about the experience of being disabled, and that this is precisely why it worked for me.

Now Bujold does not, as far as I know, have any disabilities or debilitating chronic illnesses. Had someone told her she shouldn't write a story about the experience of someone who does, and she'd listened, I would have been denied one of the primary things that helped me get through that time.

I don't mean this as a blanket rejection of complaints about writers who appropriate other people's perspectives, by any means. A lot of those complaints are no doubt warranted, considering how easy it is for writers to fall back on stereotype. Nor do I think that most of the people bringing up these concerns categorically reject all works that cross cultural boundaries--most object to those that do it badly, which is a lot of them because doing it well is difficult. But there are some people calling for that kind of categorical rejection, and I too think that this would be very harmful.

 

[Thomas Shey]

That is a problem with willfully approaching culture in "broad strokes". In the real world, cultures are all mixed bags, or almost all are, anyway. But you will tend to lose that with broad strokes.

"Mixed bag" and "all seem equally good or bad" do not seem synonyms to me, and that's over and above how well any of that is going to be visible in casual encounters in an RPG context.

So, what do you think the goal is - to make a thing so that nobody could ever voice any objection at all? That not a single person in Wales could possibly look at your game material and scowl at it? That's not going to happen. If that's the goal, we can stop discussing it as being impossible to achieve.

But that begs the question: how many or how frequent does it have to be before you don't blow it off? I agree there are clear cases, but I think in many of them the issue is much, much more muddy.

I, personally, think there's a far more useful way to consider use - am I breaking Wheaton's Law? Am I being a jerk about this? I don't need every single person in Wales to like my work to assure myself that I'm not being a jerk.

But in the end, are you the best one to judge that? There are people who absolutely don't think they're being jerks but seem so to others.

 

[BookTenTiger]

"Mixed bag" and "all seem equally good or bad" do not seem synonyms to me, and that's over and above how well any of that is going to be visible in casual encounters in an RPG context.



But that begs the question: how many or how frequent does it have to be before you don't blow it off? I agree there are clear cases, but I think in many of them the issue is much, much more muddy.



But in the end, are you the best one to judge that? There are people who absolutely don't think they're being jerks but seem so to others.

It seems like you are looking for strict guidelines, but those just don't exist in cases like this.

I think the best thing a creator can do is reach out to people with different perspectives. You're never going to get it perfect, but by listening to and collaborating with others, you are at least making an effort!

 

[Thomas Shey]

It seems like you are looking for strict guidelines, but those just don't exist in cases like this.

Nope. I'm just noting any decision here can be, in one fashion or another, wrong, even with the best of intentions and reasonable efforts, and suggesting people keep that in mind.