D&D 5E On Representation and Roleplaying

[Irlo]

Deleted.

 

[MGibster]

And to be honest, there was a lot of wish-fulfillment going on - especially when you had younger players. Fun fact- IIRC, in 1981, 60% of TSR's sales were to consumers between the age of 10 and 14. So this roleplaying could be something as simple as "Ima get more power, more quickly! I will rule everything, all the time, forever!"

I am perfectly comfortable describing D&D as an adolescent power fantasy. I say that with no derision at all.

2. Advantages of Roleplaying- from Cops 'n Robbers to Dungeons & Dragons.
People Don't Throw Things At Me Anymore. Maybe Because I Carry A Bow Around.

I can attribute my voluminous vocabular and penchant for unnecessarily protracted statements to the various role playing games which engrossed my cronies and I. AD&D was especially noteworthy for introducing me to doxies, strumpets, trollops, and slovenly trulls, all of whom I wished to become more acquainted with when I was thirteen. I could not afford the price of tuition from such portentious instructors, but was instead tutored in proper manners by the most flinty of characters, teenage girls.

Now for a truism- roleplaying ... like, really good roleplaying ... it's hard. Think of some example you've seen. Maybe it's acting in a film. Maybe it's watching Critical Role. And then compare it to what you're doing at your own table- it's not easy! Let's compare it to acting (TTRPG roleplaying isn't acting, but it works for this comparison)-

It is. I have friends who have been playing for years but rarely make any effort at affecting voices, mannerisms, or putting a lot of thought into their characters. But we still have a good time and that's okay.

... but that doesn't mean that there are no similar issues. If you've played long enough, you've undoubtedly come across a truly questionable roleplaying choice. Maybe it was questionable in terms of morality (the edgelord evil character). Maybe it was questionable in terms of accents (the Triton named Wu Tang Clam). Maybe it was questionable in terms of a characterization that was more of a stereotype (say, a Samurai that was leaning too heavily into stereotypes about Asian culture, as opposed to genre conventions).

I have to admit, I will happily affect many accents in a role playing game but you'll never hear me try to use an Asian accent. Southern belle, cheesy Swede, Bronx cheer, sexy German, etc., etc. are just fine but never Asian. It's not like most of my other accents are accurate, but I've grown up with too many people making fun of Asians by imitating their accents that I just can't do it.

Most importantly, tables should be a relatively free place for people to try and explore roleplaying. Someone playing an identity that is different than the one that they have is the entire purpose ... even more, at a minimum it might be building some measure of empathy, and at most it might be someone exploring aspects of themselves that they aren't even comfortable being open about yet. This isn't a demand to withhold reasonable judgment if you see something beyond the pale, so much as a call for greater understanding that this is a hobby that involves amateurs and roleplaying.

At most of our tables, representation is going to be severely curtailed if we avoid exploring character options outside of our own experiences. Even if your table is a veritable rainbow, there's only 5-6 players usually. For most games, I don't really give diversity a whole lot of thought. I rarely describe race, sexual orientation, religion, or other such things in fantasy games and they're not typically the subject of much interest in other games. I have made a concerted effort in my upcoming Cyberpunk Red game to make sure the cast of NPCs is diverse in large part because it makes the world seem more real. I've made sure to include Haitians, Ghanaians, Indians, and Latinos and made sure to include a non-binary Rocker Boy (that's the class name) named Frankie Heywood.

Everyone wants to be a bard- part of the problem. But this is the time to be a part of the solution. If a person at your table is roleplaying in a manner that offends you, (1) ask them why they are making that choice, and if that response doesn't ameliorate your issue, then (2) explain why you are having an issue with that characterization, and (3) offer an alternative way to go forward.

Kill their character and take their stuff.

 

[Thomas Shey]

I mean, if you are self publishing then you are probably relying on free labor anyways, from friends who are willing to read over your work to a gaming group who can playtest to, I don't know, a mom who sends you pizza to help keep you fed.

Sure. I'm just saying there's a limited degree you should expect it. You may have to just do your own lifting and call it good. Otherwise you're just doing a variation on expecting free emotional labor.

Larger publishers will hire folks to do this kind of stuff, but small publishers rely on community support anyways. I don't see how talking with people on the internet is much different.

See above. It isn't, as long as you don't, as I said, expect it.

(Though in the case of some groups, you may have to do more searching than others. I have good faith that I could find a reasonable range of English speaking Brazillians; I'd be less certain of Peruvians, especially if I wanted to find something beyond the heavily Spanish influenced urban dwellers and wanted to have a sense of how the more native populace views things).

Edit: In fact, that's one of those places where being of the culture is a huge advantage; even if you're not as well-steeped in some aspects of your culture as you could be, its going to be easier to access it for various reasons including language. I doubt I could have produced a result like the guy who did the Elephant and Macaw Banner RPG without enormous amount of extremely difficult work.

 

[BookTenTiger]

Sure. I'm just saying there's a limited degree you should expect it. You may have to just do your own lifting and call it good. Otherwise you're just doing a variation on expecting free emotional labor.



See above. It isn't, as long as you don't, as I said, expect it.

(Though in the case of some groups, you may have to do more searching than others. I have good faith that I could find a reasonable range of English speaking Brazillians; I'd be less certain of Peruvians, especially if I wanted to find something beyond the heavily Spanish influenced urban dwellers and wanted to have a sense of how the more native populace views things).

Man, I just disagree. I think it should be expected now, that if you are choosing to publish about a culture or identity you don't share, either spend the money to hire a consultant or do the work of connecting and collaborating with others.

If you would hire a copy editor to read over your work, if you would hire an illustrator, hire a cultural consultant.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Man, I just disagree. I think it should be expected now, that if you are choosing to publish about a culture or identity you don't share, either spend the money to hire a consultant or do the work of connecting and collaborating with others.

You misunderstood. I meant you shouldn't expect it of people you're asking for help.

If you would hire a copy editor to read over your work, if you would hire an illustrator, hire a cultural consultant.

I'd be willing to bet a rather large number of people outside of actual companies don't hire copy editors, either.

 

[BookTenTiger]

You misunderstood. I meant you shouldn't expect it of people you're asking for help.

Ah, you're right, I did misunderstand. And you're right, to get help from a community you need to do the work to be a part of that community. It's still a lot easier to do now with the internet!

 

[MGibster]

people got the sense they could do something because a charter on tv was sort of similar to them that seems very alien to me, I watched tv to get away from myself not be inspired nothing ever inspired conviction in myself.

You may belong to a group that is routinely represented on television in various roles. In the 1950s and 60s, it was very uncommon to see African Americans on television who weren't relegated to the role of domestic servants or porters. In the series I, Spy, Bill Cosby and Robert Culp where equal partners which caused many television stations in the South refusing to air the show. It was a big deal for Star Trek not not only have a black woman on the bridge, but we had several episodes with black people in prominent positions. The foremost expert on computers in the Federation was Dr. Daystrom. Again a big deal in the 1960s. Astronaut Ronald McNair was also inspired by watching Star Trek growing up.

When you don't see many examples of people who look like you doing something, it's very easy to get the impression that certain things aren't for people like you. So maybe a black kid is interested in in fantasy and science fiction games. But it's 1991 and he takes a look at those Warhammer miniatures and AD&D books and doesn't anyone in those pages who resembles him nor does he see a lot of people playing the game who resembles him. So he figures maybe these games just aren't for him. Representation might not be important to you personally, and that's okay, but it's important to some people.

I read a thing about the movie Short Circuit and the actor who went brownface feels real bad about it. Originally, he got the part as a white guy and for some reason the director asked if he could do a scientist from India instead. At the time the actor was young and looking for work and this kind of thing wasnt frowned upon sadly, so he did it.

Quite frankly, I think most of us did things when we were younger we'd be embarrassed about today. The times change and we change with them. Well, sometime we change with them.

 

[MGibster]

So, one major philosophy going about in the space of prose fiction is that folks who are not extremely well educated about a culture, probably should not write a novel about that culture. So, for example, if I am a white male heterosexual author, if I am writing a 1920s detective novel, I probably don't want to set it in, and have it revolve around, Harlem of that era. I probably don't know enough or have perspective to do a good job of it.

Being a white heterosexual author doesn't really give you a whole lot of insight into being a white heterosexual author in New York during the 1920s. Wouldn't you have to be just as extremely well educated about culture to write about him as you would about an African American character during that same era? Furthermore, a black author doesn't necessarily have any particular insight into the culture of the 1920s. They would also need to do a lot of research to know enough to write effectively.

Edit: Weird that I put in author instead of male. But I'm gonna keep it.

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

Oh, just call me a fascist and get done with it.

The fact this is a tactic used by people with malign intent does not mean everyone who thinks there's good and bad ways to do something is a concern troll. That's just a cheap way to blow off any criticism you're not willing to engage with.

Better to just ignore Ad_hoc, as he is not worth your time. Or if you disagree with him enough, he will just put you on ignore. Probably half the members here are on his ignore list.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Concern troll

A concern troll is someone who disingenuously visits sites of an opposing ideology to disrupt conversation by offering unwanted advice on how to solve problems which do not really exist. Topics of "concern" usually involve tactical use of rhetoric, site rules, or with more philosophical...

rationalwiki.org

Mod Note:

Making it personal in one easy step.

To all: this poster should have disengaged from that discussion or used their ignore feature, but decided to take a swing. This is NOT a good idea.