D&D General What does "magic" mean? [Read carefully, you can't change your vote]

[Fenris-77]

Sorry I’m a bit thick this morning. I see you said there’s a big difference but I’m not seeing where you actually say what the difference is.

Why is a ghost or a giant not magic, is my question.

I don't get why you think they're even remotely the same. I don't know where that leaves us.

 

[Minigiant]

Since it's all unreal fantasy fiction does it really matter where we draw lines between magic and supernatural?

We care about how things like anti magic zones or dispel. Beyond that? Doesn't really matter.

Depends

A couple fun tropes "there are things you can't do with magic" and "some things are too expensive or inefficient with magic".
That's where Not-Magic comes in.

But some people hate restrictions or high costs on magic so we don't get to play with these tropes often in D&D. Or not for long as more magic gets added..

 

[Maxperson]

I don't get why you think they're even remotely the same. I don't know where that leaves us.

I don't think most people(can't see who you are responding to) think that they are the same or close to the same. I think they just see undead and such as a different type of magic, like the 5e Sage Advice talks about.

Personally, I'm like you. I don't see them as close to the same and while they are supernatural, they are not magic to me. If someone asks me if undead or giants are magic, I'm going to tell them no. There are supernatural powers, though. So while the undead might not be magic, that draining cloud it has created around you through it's innate power probably is.

 

[Lakesidefantasy]

The background magic of the environment would be such that detecting magic to find a mimic would be like casting detect oxygen in an air-filled room: the mimic matches the baseline perfectly. That said, props to that player for creative thinking!

Where being a magic-based creature becomes relevant is that if somehow a place is stripped of its magic (e.g. becomes a powerful null-magic zone) then any magic-based creatures in that area have to either leave or, before long, die. A really heavy Dispel Magic can also really make a magic-based creature sit up and take notice, but as Dispel is an instantaneous effect it's almost never going to kill one.

The background magic of the environment?

It took me a while to figure out what you might mean by that statement.

In a fantasy world where creator gods can actually exist, the world, and all of its environments (a swamp in this particular case), was created by the gods with--magic. The instantaneous magical act of creation could be likened somewhat to the cosmic background radiation all around us in the actual world, foiling attempts to detect weak magical signals like that from a mimic.

Far out man.

This is just the kind of thing I don't like doing--making sense of nonsense. It's futile really. For instance, the dwarven High Canter believes, no, strike that, He know with absolute certitude that the gods created the world brick by brick over a period of 3,167,238 years; and if you dig deep enough, you will find perfect specimens of these bricks still true in form, unlike those that surround us, now ground into dust that blows across the plains. Then again the elves of the Biworld believe, no, they enact and embody creation persistently with every thought throughout time in an ever-expanding loop of divine nothingness.

The halflings--well they're just in awe of the whole thing.

What a trip.

 

[Hussar]

I don't get why you think they're even remotely the same. I don't know where that leaves us.

Well, it's fairly simple. If it's not possible in the real world, it's magic. Thus, flying pegasi, giant insects and mimics are all the result of magic.

So, you're claiming that magic and supernatural are not even remotely the same, so, how do you define these terms? Because, to me, they are pretty much the same thing.

 

[Hussar]

Since it's all unreal fantasy fiction does it really matter where we draw lines between magic and supernatural?

We care about how things like anti magic zones or dispel. Beyond that? Doesn't really matter.

Well, here's the trick though. Can a fighter do supernatural things? Can non-spell casters do things that are flat out physically impossible? Because, now, it matters. If there is a hard line between magical and non-magical, then, well, non-magical things can't do stuff that break physics.

Which of course, rolls right back into the argument about why fighters can't have nice things.

 

[Lanefan]

The background magic of the environment?

It took me a while to figure out what you might mean by that statement.

In a fantasy world where creator gods can actually exist, the world, and all of its environments (a swamp in this particular case), was created by the gods with--magic. The instantaneous magical act of creation could be likened somewhat to the cosmic background radiation all around us in the actual world, foiling attempts to detect weak magical signals like that from a mimic.

Yep, exactly. Except the way I see it, the deities were created that way too. They don't get to escape the blame that easily.

Far out man.

This is just the kind of thing I don't like doing--making sense of nonsense. It's futile really.

I disagree. Making sense of the nonsense means you can add more nonsense on top of it and have it all still work seamlessly.

Put another way: even nonsense needs a foundation to rest on.

For instance, the dwarven High Canter believes, no, strike that, He know with absolute certitude that the gods created the world brick by brick over a period of 3,167,238 years; and if you dig deep enough, you will find perfect specimens of these bricks still true in form, unlike those that surround us, now ground into dust that blows across the plains. Then again the elves of the Biworld believe, no, they enact and embody creation persistently with every thought throughout time in an ever-expanding loop of divine nothingness.

The halflings--well they're just in awe of the whole thing.

What a trip.

Which is all great stuff! What I want to look at when worldbuilding is a) what really happened (i.e. are any of those tales even within a light-year of the truth) and b) how do the physics of it all work and-or what ties it all together.

 

[Fenris-77]

Well, it's fairly simple. If it's not possible in the real world, it's magic. Thus, flying pegasi, giant insects and mimics are all the result of magic.

So, you're claiming that magic and supernatural are not even remotely the same, so, how do you define these terms? Because, to me, they are pretty much the same thing.

Blargh. The phrase you're looking for is suspension of disbelief. Or something. However, that said, I'm just going to assume you're joking when you say that anything outside real-world physics must be magic which must therefor must be subject to a specifically D&D anti-magic field or something (because that was the contention I was replying to). I'm doing you a favor there, because that's arrant nonsense. Oh no, pegasi fall to earth and giants can't walk. Please. Not that you couldn't do that in your own game, go nuts, but lets not try to make an 'argument' about it (because there's no argument there).

 

[Maxperson]

Blargh. The phrase you're looking for is suspension of disbelief. Or something. However, that said, I'm just going to assume you're joking when you say that anything outside real-world physics must be magic which must therefor must be subject to a specifically D&D anti-magic field or something (because that was the contention I was replying to). I'm doing you a favor there, because that's arrant nonsense. Oh no, pegasi fall to earth and giants can't walk. Please. Not that you couldn't do that in your own game, go nuts, but lets not try to make an 'argument' about it (because there's no argument there).

It would certainly make beholders god beings. The main eye can stop dragon fire, dragon flight, giants, the tarrasque and more.

And what happens if two beholders look at each other?

 

[EzekielRaiden]

That's a dangerous gamble, at best.

That makes for a good story, to be sure.

But does it make for a good gaming experience? I find the answer is almost always "no."