D&D General Why is D&D 4E a "tactical" game?

[Justice and Rule]

None of which changes the fact that they have different entries in the book and different stat blocks. It's kind of like saying that a 5E guard is the same as a champion because they're both human.

Different stat blocks means nothing. My character at 1st level has a different stat block than my character at 15th level. What matters is that in the fiction they are the same; the difference in the stat blocks comes from the progression between the two moments.

The same can be said for the ogres. Those stat blocks could literally represent the same ogres, but at different points in the story. It represents where they are relative to the players: they could potentially keep up with them, or they could fall behind them. But it doesn't change that, in the fiction, they're still the same ogres.

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

None of which changes the fact that they have different entries in the book and different stat blocks. It's kind of like saying that a 5E guard is the same as a champion because they're both human.

You continue to apply the paradigmn of other games where the "stat block" is a more rigid, 'objective' measure of what the creature looks like in the world. In other games if something has a different stat block it means it is a different thing. In 4e that is not the case.

Why is it so hard to accept that you should think about 4e differently since it's a different game?

And again, even you you don't think this is how 4e was intended to work, why not embrace this way of thinking that does make it all sensible and useful?

 

[Micah Sweet]

T

That swarm of orcs has a different stat block does that mean the narrative of the monster is different?

Or does it mean the systems mechanics are representing the same thing in a way appropriate to context?

That second thing. But not everyone wants that in their game.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Interesting indeed. Of course you still have to keep track of things where as in 4e an outclassed enemy going down in one stroke just doesnt take as much math.

Yeah, this is just a big "DM quality of life" thing, if I choose to put 20 minion orcs into a fight, I don't have to keep track of 20 hit point totals. I just put them out there and if you hit, they die, if you miss, they don't. Its vastly easier to handle. The 5e/PF2e way, well, I could just not bother to track hit points and do the same thing, but then why not just actually have that mechanism built into the game? I don't ever have to use it if I don't want to.

 

[Oofta]

Different stat blocks means nothing. My character at 1st level has a different stat block than my character at 15th level. What matters is that in the fiction they are the same; the difference in the stat blocks comes from the progression between the two moments.

The same can be said for the ogres. Those stat blocks could literally represent the same ogres, but at different points in the story. It represents where they are relative to the players: they could potentially keep up with them, or they could fall behind them. But it doesn't change that, in the fiction, they're still the same ogres.

So that 5E guard is exactly the same as a champion?

In any case, it's just a matter of perspective. In 5E you literally use the same monster entry, in 4E you did not. You can claim they're the same all you want, I'm done.

 

[Neonchameleon]

The ogre you face at 1st level and the ogre you face at 10th have different stat blocks. They are literally not the same monster entry in the book. In 5E you can use the same monster, same stat block, you just need to throw 10 or so instead of 1 to make it a challenge.

Which book are you reading?

Because I have Monster Vault in front of me. The basic ogre is level 6 and thus suitable for a fight from foes from about level 2 to about level 8 under normal conditions.

Yes, there are bigger types of ogre, like the level 7 ogre hunter - but that's for ogres with an expertise and you'd expect to mix standard ogres with specialist hunters. I mean it's not as if you're retiring the 6th level ogre for a 7th level one just on level grounds unless you don't have a clue.

I think you're thinking about the level 14 Arena Trained Ogre (which is the only one of the Monster Vault ogres you wouldn't use in a mixed party with the basic ogre). And being specifically arena-trained is very different fictionally from being a random villager. Do you object that there are elite human gladiators with better training, better weapons, and better equipment? If not why object to arena-trained ogres that are far more of a threat.

Me? My preference is that members of a given species or even tribe didn't all come straight from the cloning machine and different people with different roles are encouraged to have different stats. As well as being more tactical 4e has much more interesting and nuanced worldbuilding.

And as I mentioned in my previous reply to you, throwing 10 ogres each with 59 hit points and AC 11 to make it a "challenge" in 5e will lead to an utterly tedious and boring experience. Encouraging bad experiences is not a good thing.

 

[Oofta]

You continue to apply the paradigmn of other games where the "stat block" is a more rigid, 'objective' measure of what the creature looks like in the world. In other games if something has a different stat block it means it is a different thing. In 4e that is not the case.

Why is it so hard to accept that you should think about 4e differently since it's a different game?

And again, even you you don't think this is how 4e was intended to work, why not embrace this way of thinking that does make it all sensible and useful?

Different stat blocks represent different creatures to me. The higher levels are not just simplified, they have different attack modifiers and hit points. You can claim that a commoner and an archmage are exactly the same all you want, I disagree.

I'm done having this argument.

 

[Neonchameleon]

T

That second thing. But not everyone wants that in their game.

Then if you're the DM don't do it. I want it in my game but nothing is forcing you to use it.

 

[Justice and Rule]

That's a common theme in PF2: there are very few optional elements that give you bonuses as such, but instead they give you new and potentially better options. Elements that give you bonuses are probably part of your class chassis, and you might have a choice of which one to get, but you can never double up on them. For example, rangers have a choice of Hunter's Edge: Flurry (reducing MAP), Outwit (giving you skill and AC bonuses against your prey), or Precision (giving you bonus damage on the first hit each round against your prey). But you can never have both Flurry and Precision, and neither is available via multiclassing.

Exactly this. Most of your mathematical progression is locked into your class. The bigger thing is how your class allows you to use the action economy.

Yeah, this is just a big "DM quality of life" thing, if I choose to put 20 minion orcs into a fight, I don't have to keep track of 20 hit point totals. I just put them out there and if you hit, they die, if you miss, they don't. Its vastly easier to handle. The 5e/PF2e way, well, I could just not bother to track hit points and do the same thing, but then why not just actually have that mechanism built into the game? I don't ever have to use it if I don't want to.

I don't find it particularly hard if they die quick, or at least take a big enough hit to realize the mistake they made. It's more a problem with 5E, because bags of hitpoints will always be bags of hitpoints.

So that 5E guard is exactly the same as a champion?

Are they the same character or a different one? If they are, then yes. If they aren't, then no. Identity is not defined by stat block, but by the fiction.

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

They should be different in the narrative, according to the rulebooks.

"My interpretation of the rulebooks leads to a nonsense game!"
"Well, if you use it in this context, then it makes sense. The game isn't operating under the same paradigmn"
"Nah, I'll stick to the interpretation that leads to nonsense. What a crp game."