D&D General Why is D&D 4E a "tactical" game?

[AbdulAlhazred]

Try looking at it this way:

Player 1 (level 30): "How difficult is it to climb this ladder?"

DM: "It's hard. The DC will be 30."

Player 2 (level 1): "Can I climb it?"

DM: "Sure, but it's still hard. The DC is 15 for you."

Numbers are not meant to be static in 4e. That is why scaling was designed to be easy, and player facing. The game assumes you're not going to have a group of character with more than a few levels apart.

Likewise, you can fight an ogre at level 8 and again at level 20. Keeping the same stats for the ogre at level 8 will not be a challenge for a party at level 20. But it is still an ogre. The game is simply designed to let you fight ogres any time rather than having them disappear because the player characters outgrew them.

No. In 4e a given ladder has a DC, based on the level of challenge it represents. Fictionally a basic ordinary ladder is perhaps a level 1 challenge (if that). Every PC will thus have the same DC (15 I guess) to climb it. A level 30 PC won't need to even roll that check, he cannot possibly fail, and thus ordinary ladders, if they appear at all, are just terrain features or set dressing. Level 30 ladders (DC37 IIRC) are instead made of lightning bolts and are actively trying to throw the PC off them, and lead into a pocket dimension or something. First level PCs are not going here, and the DC37 pretty much guarantees that!

I mean, @pemerton has argued that the DCs are really not STEEP ENOUGH to act as a sufficient fictional test in and of themselves. He has argued that part of the GM's job is to actively frame things in fictional terms appropriate to the character's level and thus some paragon PC simply will never encounter the lightning ladder, he's not fictionally ready for it, even though he might well be capable of passing a DC37 (some will, some won't, but its certainly likely a few level 19 PCs can do that for specific DCs).

Anyway, my main point stands, the same challenge NEVER has different DCs. DC is TIED TO THE FICTION, NOT THE CHARACTERS.

 

[Oofta]

it might be 10 minion class ogres or a swarm of ogres in 4e, a simplification so that un-needed mechanics were not included.

Still taking out a dozen ogres still the same kind of ogres just represented in a simpler way

My preference is that it not be misrepresented

The ogre you face at 1st level and the ogre you face at 10th have different stat blocks. They are literally not the same monster entry in the book. In 5E you can use the same monster, same stat block, you just need to throw 10 or so instead of 1 to make it a challenge.

Just because you have a preference for a different style doesn't mean you can just change the facts to suit your narrative. So what bothers me is that people make up these "misrepresentations" because I have a different preference and point of view.

Have a good one.

 

[Thomas Shey]

See, that's another issue I have. If someone complains about realism in an RPG, i don't believe "magical elf game" is a reasonable defense. There are levels of realism, and i think departure from real world (or at least Hollywood) should be called out, and otherwise real world is assumed.

I don't disagree with this in general, but, well, if the wind is blowing from that direction I wouldn't be playing any incarnation or offshoot of D&D in the first place. And in fact didn't for a long time for just that reason. I think the realism level of D&D is already so low that's just got to be a pretty severe dissonance before its worth worrying about.

 

[Garthanos]

The ogre you face at 1st level and the ogre you face at 10th have different stat blocks.

That swarm of orcs has a different stat block does that mean the narrative of the monster is different?

Or does it mean the systems mechanics are representing the same thing in a way appropriate to context?

 

[Justice and Rule]

The ogre you face at 1st level and the ogre you face at 10th have different stat blocks. They are literally not the same monster entry in the book. In 5E you can use the same monster, same stat block, you just need to throw 10 or so instead of 1 to make it a challenge.

Just because you have a preference for a different style doesn't mean you can just change the facts to suit your narrative. So what bothers me is that people make up these "misrepresentations" because I have a different preference and point of view.

Have a good one.

But in the fiction, they're the same. They've changed stats, but despite this they are actually the same characters just like the PCs are the same, despite continuing to change in power and ability over time.

I feel like I'm half-a-step removed from the D&D mechanical equivalent of the Ship of Theseus question.

 

[Oofta]

Reading through the past few pages, I don't think that your preference is actually what is being debated here. I think the issue is less about whether or not you have a preference or even what that preference is, but, rather, it is the accuracy by which you are mis/characterizing this aspect of 4e and what it attempts to model in terms of the fiction.

I get tired of the "you're misrepresenting the game" argument. If you have a specific issue I'm open to discussing. General accusations of "you don't know what you're talking about"? Not so much.

 

[Jacob Lewis]

No. In 4e a given ladder has a DC, based on the level of challenge it represents. Fictionally a basic ordinary ladder is perhaps a level 1 challenge (if that). Every PC will thus have the same DC (15 I guess) to climb it. A level 30 PC won't need to even roll that check, he cannot possibly fail, and thus ordinary ladders, if they appear at all, are just terrain features or set dressing. Level 30 ladders (DC37 IIRC) are instead made of lightning bolts and are actively trying to throw the PC off them, and lead into a pocket dimension or something. First level PCs are not going here, and the DC37 pretty much guarantees that!

I mean, @pemerton has argued that the DCs are really not STEEP ENOUGH to act as a sufficient fictional test in and of themselves. He has argued that part of the GM's job is to actively frame things in fictional terms appropriate to the character's level and thus some paragon PC simply will never encounter the lightning ladder, he's not fictionally ready for it, even though he might well be capable of passing a DC37 (some will, some won't, but its certainly likely a few level 19 PCs can do that for specific DCs).

Anyway, my main point stands, the same challenge NEVER has different DCs. DC is TIED TO THE FICTION, NOT THE CHARACTERS.

Are we really concerned that we got the appropriate-level ladder for this particular scenario? The only reason we put a ladder with a DC value assigned is because we expect player characters to show up. Not to keep out the peasantry who probably wouldn't show up in a level 30 dungeon or keep anyway.

So what kind of ladders does paragon-city use? Or doors? Or locks? Are they glowing magicky alloys with interdimensional qualities because the folks are all of a certain level? Does the sign at the gate say you must be between these levels to enter?

Or are we just fooling ourselves in this ridiculously-polarizing and overly-subjective argument over fantastic ladders of the realm? I mean, you can do it either way. Whatever works for you. I know what works for me.

 

[jmartkdr2]

That swarm of orcs has a different stat block does that mean the narrative of the monster is different?

Or does it mean the systems mechanics are representing the same thing in a way appropriate to context?

They should be different in the narrative, according to the rulebooks.

 

[jmartkdr2]

But in the fiction, they're the same.
They've changed stats, but despite this they are actually the same characters just like the PCs are the same, despite continuing to change in power and ability over time.

I feel like I'm half-a-step removed from the D&D mechanical equivalent of the Ship of Theseus question.

Only if it's still Shrek, the specific swamp ogre, who survived meeting the pcs somehow and has since gained a few levels. If it's a different ogre but higher level... it's a different ogre.

 

[Garthanos]

They should be different in the narrative, according to the rulebooks.

Not even sure I know what you mean... the Orc in a swarm of orcs is not an orc... its a completely different thing is that really your assertion?