D&D General Why is D&D 4E a "tactical" game?

[Garthanos]

But I'm pretty sure you'll just write me off as another "hater" because I don't care for something you happen to like.

Your dislike comes up in about any thread with 4e in the title persistently regardless, so the thread doesnt get to be about what makes 4e tactical it becomes all about your ego.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Anyone saying anything bad about 4E is attacked as "hating the game" or misrepresenting.

Strangely enough I haven't gotten that response even though I've said a number of negative things about it, and mentioned that on the whole I didn't like it. Perhaps the fact I talk about it in terms of design choices that don't work for me rather than trying to misrepresent it or just play the dozens on it might have something to do with that.

 

[Oofta]

Strangely enough I haven't gotten that response even though I've said a number of negative things about it, and mentioned that on the whole I didn't like it. Perhaps the fact I talk about it in terms of design choices that don't work for me rather than trying to misrepresent it or just play the dozens on it might have something to do with that.

What, exactly, have I misrepresented? If I'm saying something misleading, please let me know.

 

[Vaalingrade]

I always have to wonder with these 'drive by' "I hate your game" comments if the poster ever actually played. Did they READ the books and play the game roughly as designed? Did they make a genuine attempt to understand it and give it a fair shake? Or did they just hear some rumor about it, or maybe at most roll out KotS and roll up PCs and play for 1 hour without even reading the actual rules? (Sadly KotS really doesn't help, though the DMG1 back-of-the-book adventure is a good bit better).

I mean, 5e doesn't excite me that much, there are various areas where I just don't care that much for it. Still, you will at least hear me saying what I like (there are definitely some things) and I've read most of the core rules and definitely played a fair amount of it (played in 3 or 4 different campaigns through most of the levels at least twice).

It's like those soldiers they found on an island years after WWII. They don't know the war's over and still want to kill the enemy.

It's more annoying here seeing as they won the war and all the fun cool stuff of 4e is either gone or so mutated it's unrecognizable.

The edition war is over guys. Go home. Hug your loved ones. Let us mourn our dead in peace.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

That defense side is important too... ready temp hit points even from at-wills and damage resistance that actually stops lesser attacks.

Well, I didn't get into the "I got my ass kicked by the wimpy gnolls" part, but that WAS the end result. The rest of the party finished them off, after an interminable battle. Really they were not at all like minions, they were sloggy, and they slowly slowly chewed away at my character. I'm not complaining about that though, just that they were sloggy and detracted from the main point of the whole sequence, which was meeting boss lady gnoll shaman/something. Oddly boss lady was the reverse, disappointingly easy to deal with, once we were all reasonably healed (and yeah, you gotta love the fighter's encounter-based resource thing at that point, next fight I was as good as new!).

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Anyone saying anything bad about 4E is attacked as "hating the game" or misrepresenting.

I can't speak for anyone else, I don't think I have really ever done that. Its fine not to like something that much, but I do think that a certain poster might have been a bit over the top. I don't understand the whole drive by thing, but it was like edition war silliness 101.

There are aspects of the games I liked such as my cleric being able to contribute to combat while also being support, it was a nice balance. There are aspects I didn't like. Minions were an interesting idea but ultimately I just didn't care for them. It was goofy, for example, if the PCs were fighting ogres at their level at level 8 the ogre had over a hundred HP but at level 11 it was a minion with slightly better defenses but only 1 HP. I understand the concept, it just didn't work for me. The two monsters represented something so different I just couldn't see it.

Well, if you ask me, 3 levels is a bit tight when you want to take a significant threat to just turn it into a minion. If it was 7 or 9 levels, then I'm good with it. I guess there's a question of "what do I do when the monster is 4 levels below the PCs?" I guess you can just go with it, they will get a lot fewer hits, but then that is probably what you want... they're still SOMEWHAT of a threat. Anyway, I'm happy with people having issues, though I do kind of see a lot of it boiling down to just being way entrenched in D&D traditions. Not meant to impune anyone's opinions really, but... However, minions don't really fall into that category IMHO. They're just a new thing, and you like or not like, but I do still think when used properly they SHOULDN'T cause a great issue, but they certainly can if you, say, minionize things after 3 levels.

But try explaining that? Obviously I didn't play the game (I played it for years), I'm misrepresenting the concept (I understand it, I just prefer 5E's approach), I'm trolling or gaslighting.

Yeah, again, I don't think I really said any of that. In my defense I skipped a chunk of the earlier part of the thread, though I've followed at least the last half carefully. So I don't know if some people are touchy, or if there was something I didn't read. So, I won't venture an opinion.

People like what they like. I don't understand why anyone other than farmers and construction workers, people who need to haul stuff, like pickup trucks. Yet they're everywhere in the US. Doesn't make people who love their trucks wrong, just means I prefer a different option. I gave 4E the old college try. I really, really tried to like it. But eventually I just burned out on it. In part that's because in the games I played the role playing and creative aspects were minimized for reasons I still can't fully explain.

Sure. I agree with you on pickup trucks too, lol. Now and then I wish my crossover was a pickup, I cannot QUITE fit a 4x8 sheet of plywood in my car, or a major appliance! Still, they seem like overkill to me, for most suburban dudes like myself. And, as for the whole thing with the RP and whatever. I suspect people got VERY set in their ways over the years. I mean, if I were to go play 1e again I KNOW if I DMed it I would be bogged down by how people would fall back on old habits, at least for a while. I think a lot of people just never quite figured out what worked well with 4e. WotC was very unclear about that, they also didn't 'get it', so I'd hardly blame players.

But I'm pretty sure you'll just write me off as another "hater" because I don't care for something you happen to like.

Not me! I won't claim I've never grown frustrated with people, but I'm not much of a name-caller. Honestly, there are only a few things in life that bother me, and posts in forums are generally not in that category .

 

[Oofta]

I can't speak for anyone else, I don't think I have really ever done that. Its fine not to like something that much, but I do think that a certain poster might have been a bit over the top. I don't understand the whole drive by thing, but it was like edition war silliness 101.

Well, if you ask me, 3 levels is a bit tight when you want to take a significant threat to just turn it into a minion. If it was 7 or 9 levels, then I'm good with it. I guess there's a question of "what do I do when the monster is 4 levels below the PCs?" I guess you can just go with it, they will get a lot fewer hits, but then that is probably what you want... they're still SOMEWHAT of a threat. Anyway, I'm happy with people having issues, though I do kind of see a lot of it boiling down to just being way entrenched in D&D traditions. Not meant to impune anyone's opinions really, but... However, minions don't really fall into that category IMHO. They're just a new thing, and you like or not like, but I do still think when used properly they SHOULDN'T cause a great issue, but they certainly can if you, say, minionize things after 3 levels.

Yeah, again, I don't think I really said any of that. In my defense I skipped a chunk of the earlier part of the thread, though I've followed at least the last half carefully. So I don't know if some people are touchy, or if there was something I didn't read. So, I won't venture an opinion.

Sure. I agree with you on pickup trucks too, lol. Now and then I wish my crossover was a pickup, I cannot QUITE fit a 4x8 sheet of plywood in my car, or a major appliance! Still, they seem like overkill to me, for most suburban dudes like myself. And, as for the whole thing with the RP and whatever. I suspect people got VERY set in their ways over the years. I mean, if I were to go play 1e again I KNOW if I DMed it I would be bogged down by how people would fall back on old habits, at least for a while. I think a lot of people just never quite figured out what worked well with 4e. WotC was very unclear about that, they also didn't 'get it', so I'd hardly blame players.

Not me! I won't claim I've never grown frustrated with people, but I'm not much of a name-caller. Honestly, there are only a few things in life that bother me, and posts in forums are generally not in that category .

Some minions make sense to me from a game perspective. The orc minion you hit at lower levels is fine. I get the role that minions are supposed to fill in the game, I liked the concept initially. I just had a hard time squaring things like the ogre minion, or even really high level minions as a group. I really didn't mean to make such a big deal out of it, I thought it would be interesting to have a conversation about how things are handled in 5E and how I house rule my version of minions. I probably should have just started up a separate thread on how to do minion-like monsters in 5E. Oops.

I ask for clarification because I'm perfectly okay with people preferring versions (or other games, or pickups) than me. I try to reiterate that on a regular basis. But it does bug me when people say I'm "misrepresenting" 4E and similar things. Then I ask for clarification because maybe I'm not clearly explain myself (I never seem to get specifics) and get sucked into B.S.. Oh well.

 

[Thomas Shey]

What, exactly, have I misrepresented? If I'm saying something misleading, please let me know.

I'm not the one you should be asking these questions to.

 

[Oofta]

I'm not the one you should be asking these questions to.

They never give me a clear answer.

 

[Thomas Shey]

They never give me a clear answer.

Since I'm not a 4e fan, its not my job to give it for them.

But I will absolutely say there was at least one poster in this thread who misrepresented elements of the game (and grew soggy when called on it), and as noted, plenty of people will try and take the opportunity to call it anything but an RPG (which is, essentially gatekeeping and playing the dozens on it at the same time). Were I fan of the game, that would not exactly endear me to them.