D&D 5E Silvery Barbs, how would you fix it? Does it need fixing?

[Bolares]

It's a bit more than that. It contributes to whack a mole fights. Healing word takes advantage of the fact that other than low HP the PC pops up completely able.

Cleric casts healing word - fighter pops up with single digit HP. but he can now deal the same damage to the bad guys he could when he had full HP. So for a bonus action, the fighter is back in action. If he gets nocked down, another bonus action brings him up. Same with a wizard, the wizard that just popped up can cast the same spells as before, just like he hadn't been near death a second ago.

Many (if not from what I've seen, most) DMs don't attack downed PCs. The DM has to commit to doing so. Even then, it takes a foe with 3 attacks to take a PC from single digits to dead in one round, or multiple foes attacking the same downed PC (even less common).

I agree, with you. I was just pointing to what, for me is the main factor why healing word is so great at lower levels.

 

[TwoSix]

It's a bit more than that. It contributes to whack a mole fights. Healing word takes advantage of the fact that other than low HP the PC pops up completely able.

Cleric casts healing word - fighter pops up with single digit HP. but he can now deal the same damage to the bad guys he could when he had full HP. So for a bonus action, the fighter is back in action. If he gets nocked down, another bonus action brings him up. Same with a wizard, the wizard that just popped up can cast the same spells as before, just like he hadn't been near death a second ago.

Many (if not from what I've seen, most) DMs don't attack downed PCs. The DM has to commit to doing so. Even then, it takes a foe with 3 attacks to take a PC from single digits to dead in one round, or multiple foes attacking the same downed PC (even less common).

Agreed. The only real limitation on healing word is initiative order. If the enemy goes right after you and before the downed character, it's not so great. Otherwise, it's a 1st level bonus action that's effectively an Action Surge you grant to other players.

 

[Stalker0]

I agree, with you. I was just pointing to what, for me is the main factor why healing word is so great at lower levels.

And that’s why I put barbs ahead of it, silvery Barbs is great at any level, 1 to 20th, doing better at basically anything you want never goes out of style

 

[Bolares]

And that’s why I put barbs ahead of it, silvery Barbs is great at any level, 1 to 20th, doing better at basically anything you want never goes out of style

Silvery barb is not great at lower levels.

 

[Mort]

And that’s why I put barbs ahead of it, silvery Barbs is great at any level, 1 to 20th, doing better at basically anything you want never goes out of style

It will be interesting to see. Right now any awesomeness of Silvery Barbs is theoretical.

I've seen Shield, absorb elements and healing word rock from level 1 through level 15 - those are not theoretical for me.

The real question for me is that those spells 100% stand on their own. Silvery Barbs depends on a combo effect for the supposed "big" payoff. I'm just not sure it will play as big as feared.

 

[NotAYakk]

That presumes such a PC will always use barbs. If you make the decision to use it before the die is cast this is true, if not, then it is not.

Yes, that is what I presumed.

I included the cost of that decision as well.

This is far, far weaker and far less likely than stopping a critical hit IMO.

Clearly it is less likely than stopping a critical hit. But a critical hit happens 1 attack in 20; if you save Barbs just for that, you are going to sit around not using it most of the time.

A critical hit nullification is a 95% hit rate case; you lower the chance of the critical hit happening to near zero, and it has only a 5% chance of being wasted. The model describes it.

On the other hand, if your goal is to defeat a foe before it kills you, burning resources faster is a great boon, even if the results are less guaranteed. So I looked at its impact on going after legendary resists. And it is pretty decent at it.

Except LR is measured in integers and 1.67X1/3 is still less than 1.

I used the word average. An average of an integer value can be fractional, and its fractional value has meaning.

I could go further and calculate the variance and standard deviation of the number of LR this technique strips off, but would that actually help you? I'm serious, would it?

The point is that you can use this to strip legendary resists faster, using fewer actions, and using fewer high level slots. And once those LR are stripped, you can use it to land spells faster, using fewer high level slots and fewer actions.

Or if it was "needed" now you can't cast absorb elements when the legendary monster breathes on you or shield (or barbs) when he bites you and you die from it.

Why yes, it is using resources for offence instead of defence.

Landing one save-or-suck wins the fight. Going from a 3 round fight to a 5 round fight is going to hurt a lot. The best defence is quite often the best offence.

You are burning your reaction and likely doing it to no effect.

You burn your reaction every turn and a slot every turn, and the odds that this has no effect over the fight is low.

Quite likely, you end up with an extra LR or more stripped from the foe. Which means you win the fight, instead of not.

You are literally turning a 1st level spell and a reaction into a repeat of any arbitrary save they passed. If you can trigger any save that they would spend a LR on, this lets you apply it faster. It is extremely good.

If there is a weak save you or an ally of yours can target with low level spells, you can strip LR very fast and cheaply.

If the weak save requires a higher level spell, you can still do it faster and cheaper than repeating the high level spell.

If the weakest save you can target is strong, it can still brings stripping LR back into play instead of being pointless, because you can double the speed.

Using it to nullify critical hits is a fun trick, but it is a game changer against Legendary Resists.

 

[Mort]

Landing one save-or-suck wins the fight. Going from a 3 round fight to a 5 round fight is going to hurt a lot. The best defence is quite often the best offence.

You burn your reaction every turn and a slot every turn, and the odds that this has no effect over the fight is low.

Quite likely, you end up with an extra LR or more stripped from the foe. Which means you win the fight, instead of not.

You are literally turning a 1st level spell and a reaction into a repeat of any arbitrary save they passed. If you can trigger any save that they would spend a LR on, this lets you apply it faster. It is extremely good.

If there is a weak save you or an ally of yours can target with low level spells, you can strip LR very fast and cheaply.

If the weak save requires a higher level spell, you can still do it faster and cheaper than repeating the high level spell.

If the weakest save you can target is strong, it can still brings stripping LR back into play instead of being pointless, because you can double the speed.

Using it to nullify critical hits is a fun trick, but it is a game changer against Legendary Resists.

With respect to Legendary Resistance - seems like Silvery Barbs will be better for Bards than for Wizards.

Wizards have enough spell versatility that they can switch to no-save spells when confronted with LR.

Bards get very few no-save combat spells. I count only 3 before 8th level (discounting magical secrets of course) and all 3 (Cloud of Daggers, Heat Metal, Animate Objects) while good are quite situational.

 

[Bolares]

I still think the best way to deal with legendary resistances is to have a monk in your party

 

[abirdcall]

It will be interesting to see. Right now any awesomeness of Silvery Barbs is theoretical.

I've seen Shield, absorb elements and healing word rock from level 1 through level 15 - those are not theoretical for me.

The real question for me is that those spells 100% stand on their own. Silvery Barbs depends on a combo effect for the supposed "big" payoff. I'm just not sure it will play as big as feared.

That it isn't overpowered is a self fulfilling prophecy.

If a player doesn't think it is great they will not use it in the ways in which it is great and then they will say 'see I was right, it isn't a game changer'.

Conversely the player who uses it constantly to power major saving throw effects and also to bolster theirs and their allies' saving throws is going to change the dynamic of the game. Esp. if there are 2 or more PCs at the table with the spell.

 

[Mort]

That it isn't overpowered is a self fulfilling prophecy.

If a player doesn't think it is great they will not use it in the ways in which it is great and then they will say 'see I was right, it isn't a game changer'.

Conversely the player who uses it constantly to power major saving throw effects and also to bolster theirs and their allies' saving throws is going to change the dynamic of the game. Esp. if there are 2 or more PCs at the table with the spell.

The spell will, likely, not be that common (1 faction of 1 supplement) but time will tell.