D&D 5E Silvery Barbs, how would you fix it? Does it need fixing?

[Paul Farquhar]

I still think the best way to deal with legendary resistances is to have a monk in your party

This is true, monks cut through legendary resistance like a hot knife through butter.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I've been playing a character with healing word for a while now. I think I've cast it maybe twice.

My in my experience - that's twice every battle.

It provides a piddling amount of hit points, so the only really good use for it is when another PC is down.

Which is most of the time.

But in that situation, I am generally reaching for the big guns; the encounter is going badly and I need something to turn it around posthaste. And thanks to the bonus action spellcasting rules, healing word and big guns are incompatible. It's one or the other.

If the fallen PC has something that can turn things around, and if they get a turn before the monsters smack them back down, healing word can be the right spell. But those are two big "ifs." The other scenario I'd use it is when I have no big guns left to fire. But that's always a desperation play--I'm much more careful with my resources than the other players in my group, so if I'm low on gas, they're flat empty.

Healing word seems great in a white room. In actual play, I get far more use out of dissonant whispers and faerie fire.

In actual play my experience is Healing Word = Resurrection at level 1.

 

[Bolares]

In actual play my experience is Healing Word = Resurrection at level 1.

Yep

 

[Mort]

My in my experience - that's twice every battle.

Which is most of the time.

In actual play my experience is Healing Word = Resurrection at level 1.

Yeah, the "common wisdom" is that as soon as the cleric can get it - better get revivify (heck the DM at my last game at gen con made a point of mentioning how we better have it prepared!)

But IME, if Revivify is necessary you're already approaching TPK level of screwed! 9 out of 10 times healing word will not only get the job done (the character is only mostly dead) but be better (and cheaper) resource expenditure.

 

[NotAYakk]

This is true, monks cut through legendary resistance like a hot knife through butter.

So, I have shown that this spell cuts through legendary resists almost as fast as a monk.

You have to cast a spell targeting a weaker resist than Con and have a higher save DC than the monk, both common.

The monk has to hit, and either spends Ki on extra swings or on stun attempts.

Assuming a generous 3/4 hit rate, they either spend 2.25 Ki for 2.25 attempts/round or spend 4 Ki for 3 attempts/round.

If the target has a 1/3 chance of failing the save vs the monk, while a 1/2 chance of failing a save against the barbs caster (+1 DC, 2 save mod by targeting weaker save), the monk strips off either 0.75 per round for an average of 2.25 Ki, or 1.0 per round for an average of 4.0 Ki per round.

The barbs caster gets 0.5 LR per round. If they fail, they get to try again. So they are stripping 0.75 per round at the cost of 1 "real" slot, 1 action, 0.5 reaction, and 0.5 first level spell slot.

In the 50% of the time that they do not use barbs (because the monster failed), they can boost the monk's chances; burn another 0.5 reaction for 1/3 chance of a LR. The monk provides an average of 1.5 to 2.0 failed saves/round; call it half the rounds you do this.

So Monk + Barbs caster is stripping 1.0 + 0.75 + 1/2 * 1/3 * 1/2 = 1.8333 stripped at the cost of 4 Ki plus 1 "leveled" spell plus 0.375 first level spells/round. A level 4 Monk can do this for 2 rounds; the Barbs full caster can probably do it longer.

The Ki- efficient Monk who doesn't flurry instead does 0.75 LR/round and runs out of Ki at 2.7 LR stripped; the Barbs caster is stripping them faster than the Monk here (or the same speed if the Barbs has nobody else trying to strip LRs).

...

So, if Monks burn through LR, and Barbs is about the same speed, what does that say about Barbs?

 

[Bolares]

So, if Monks burn through LR, and Barbs is about the same speed, what does that say about Barbs?

Well, I disagree that Barbs is about the same speed. At least if you want to expend only 1st level spell slots on it. Because you will have to spend a slot first to cast a spell that causes a ST, and then spend another slot to cast barb. That's two slots per use of barbs, and two actions. Meanwhile the monk has to spend one attack (that can be only part of an action), and a ki point, for each attempt, that they will probably have more of and gets restored as a short rest.

Also, where do you get the 50% chance of not needing barb?

 

[Mort]

Well, I disagree that Barbs is about the same speed. At least if you want to expend only 1st level spell slots on it. Because you will have to spend a slot first to cast a spell that causes a ST, and then spend another slot to cast barb. That's to slots per use of barbs, and two actions. Meanwhile the monk has to spend one attack (that can be only part of an action), and a ki point, for each attempt, that they will probably have more of and gets restored as a short rest.

Also, where do you get the 50% chance of not needing barb?

Yeah, that's really in white room territory. Effectiveness will depend a lot on foe, on the caster AND on the slots remaining when the foe is faced. Monks, at least, recover Ki on a short rest. Wizards, Bards don't (sure Warlocks do, but they don't have enough slots to properly utilize Barbs!).

And there is a serious luck factor too!

 

[Bolares]

Yeah, that's really in white room territory. Effectiveness will depend a lot on foe, on the caster AND on the slots remaining when the foe is faced. Monks, at least, recover Ki on a short rest. Wizards, Bards don't (sure Warlocks do, but they don't have enough slots to properly utilize Barbs!).

And there is a serious luck factor too!

Yeah, in a fight with a legendary enemy the monk can afford to become a "LR spending machine". They can focus on depleting them without loosing much of their effectiveness. Meanwhile, a caster with Barb that focuses on that, risks loosing A LOT of their spell slots, and if the dice don't go their way, may end up in a situation where they spend all the LRs but don't have any significant spell slot to take advantage of that.

 

[abirdcall]

Well, I disagree that Barbs is about the same speed. At least if you want to expend only 1st level spell slots on it. Because you will have to spend a slot first to cast a spell that causes a ST, and then spend another slot to cast barb. That's two slots per use of barbs, and two actions. Meanwhile the monk has to spend one attack (that can be only part of an action), and a ki point, for each attempt, that they will probably have more of and gets restored as a short rest.

Also, where do you get the 50% chance of not needing barb?

It isn't 2 actions, it is an action and a reaction.

And yes it is 2 slots to in effect cast 2 spells with the 2nd spell only needing a reaction and a 1st level slot.

It also doesn't need to be the character's spell. Barbs can be cast to help the Monk Stunning Strike.

Then also someone in the party gets advantage on their next saving throw.

A 1st level reaction spell that gave someone advantage on the saving throw they are about to make would be a decent spell. Not the best but certainly worth a 1st level slot for important saves. This is a side benefit of this spell that is overlooked because the main benefit is so much better.

 

[ECMO3]

Protection from Evil and Good..... great spell, but niche.

Effective against roughly 30% of monsters, so not too niche and against those monsters it is FAR, FAR better for a 1st levels slot.

Absorb Elements....great spell, but niche (just not as niche).

Somewhat niche but more effective than barbs when it works.

Healing Word....no

Yes. healing word does a lot more than make a reroll and give advantage. To start with it uses a bonus, not a reaction. Second it gives back entire action sequences. An extra action for the party is ALWAYS better than advantage and almost always better than advantage and a reroll. On top of these benefits, it also heals.

Goodberry.... only with life cleric cheese, otherwise not that great.

Then you are not playing it right. My 13th level Ranger (who is not a life cleric) typically starts the day with 110 hps worth of goodberrys and NO spell slots used. It could be less or even zero if it was a tough day prior, but often it is the full 110.

He is not even a full caster. A 13th level Druid would be starting with 170hps worth. Yes a life cleric could abuse it and start out with three times as much more depending on your interpretation of disciple of life, but even without this the spell is extremely powerful.

Having 100+ hps in your back pocket before you cast your first spell of the day is freaking awesome.

Find Familiar....great spell, but not one your using every day.

No you typically use it once and the benefits from that one slot you used last for days in many cases. It is a more powerful 1st level spell than Barbs in every way, shape and form.

Even if you cast it once after every battle and then suicidally send your familiar into the first combat the very next fight it is still going to give you as much as barbs will, as it will at the very minimum cause 1 advantage and 1 lost enemy action/attack to kill it. That is the flat minimum from using the spell exclusively for combat and it is equivalent to barbs. It only goes up from there.

Bless.... probably the only other spell that could have the crown to me. Like this new barb spell, it is a spell that is great whether you are a 1st level caster or a 20th level one.

Bless is about as good as Barbs. I agree with that. It is not as powerful or as "game changing" as the other first level spells I listed above though.

If you are player a "god" wizard (aka one relying on saving throws), there is just no better spell than this. Offense trumps defense, I would much rather have my opponents knocked out with a hypnotic pattern boosted by this spell than wait to use shield to protect myself. And again, that is not even accounting for the boost this gives your allies.

Most of the spells I listed above are better and if you use your reaction on your turn to make a save reroll and IF it suceeds (a big IF) your god wizard is going to usually get pummeled and lose his concentration because he has no reaction left for shield or absorb elements. These two spells, more than any others, are essential to the "god wizard".