D&D 5E Casters vs Martials: Part 1 - Magic, its most basic components

[GMforPowergamers]

D&D is a caster power fantasy, but every time we try and get some of that for a non-caster, the "muh v-tude" crowd screams bloody murder to keep the game stuck in Revenge of the Nerds mode.

until my dying day no one will ever convince me that was not one of the top 3 sins of 4e.... though shall not give martial classes equal footing to casters.

Could you imagine if a fighter had a SoD effect?

 

[Deekin]

Could you imagine if a fighter had a SoD effect?

One of the reasons people scream bloody murder about the book of nine swords, was it Fighters did in fact get a save or die effect. It was described as one single perfect blow

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

One of the reasons people scream bloody murder about the book of nine swords, was it Fighters did in fact get a save or die effect. It was described as one single perfect blow

I never understood the hate for Book of Nine Swords. It didn't make martial characters that much more powerful (and nowhere near a 3.5 caster for most games). However it did make playing one much more interesting and fun.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Book of Nine Swords was awesome. I really liked the card mechanic for the Warblade, so you weren't doing a set rotation each fight (something encounter powers tended towards in 4E).

If we could get a "big boy" martial, I'd like to see it have something similar, or builders/consumers.

Would love to see mythic skill use too for non-casters. Pickpocket someone's memories, scare someone to death, lasso a tornado, or change the course of a river. Monks kind of get this, but as always, monks are weak spending too much design space on catching up to attack/defense baseline a class that used gear would, and is just too little, too late.

 

[HammerMan]

Book of Nine Swords was awesome. I really liked the card mechanic for the Warblade, so you weren't doing a set rotation each fight (something encounter powers tended towards in 4E).

that was crusader, Warblade was prep and know

If we could get a "big boy" martial, I'd like to see it have something similar, or builders/consumers.

yup

Would love to see mythic skill use too for non-casters. Pickpocket someone's memories, scare someone to death, lasso a tornado, or change the course of a river. Monks kind of get this, but as always, monks are weak spending too much design space on catching up to attack/defense baseline a class that used gear would, and is just too little, too late.

 

[TheOneGargoyle]

One side of it is (IMO) more security within the single target damage niche. From what I've experienced so far, spells are powered down quite a bit especially as far as damage relative to what the fighter's, barbarians, and rogues are bringing to the table. And the casters that I've seen are waaay squishier getting fewer relative hit points per level and little way to get good armor proficiencies which makes them much easier to take down.

Another side of it is feats and the actions they support in combat. 5e has grappling rules, but almost nothing in the system refers to or makes use of them. And a martial character with a high mental stat will almost always have to go outside of their class to find tools that allow them to benefit from it.
In 2e, there are a ton of feats that encourage you to engage with crafting, intimidation, grappling/tripping/shoving, etc. and there are distinct benefits for doing so. You're almost never in a situation where all you've done on your turn is attack, and the non-attack actions rarely feel wasted.

In addition, martial feats largely continue to scale in power. With certain feat choices Barbarians can become dragons or giants, fighters can cut through the fabric of space, rogues can phase through walls, rangers can hunt things across planes.

I can't testify to how effective these things feel relative to spells at the equivalent levels, since I haven't gotten there yet, but the options alone help reinforce that these characters are heroic, not just dudes at the gym.

Ok that is really interesting, thanks!

I must say I like the sound of every single thing you said there

 

[Gammadoodler]

Ok that is really interesting, thanks!

I must say I like the sound of every single thing you said there

Sure thing. I'm certainly enjoying it. It's a lot more fiddly than 5e in a way that is both a feature and a bug.

I don't even think that there's a ton happening that is incompatible with 5e. It's just that 5e designers seem to have a mental block regarding what they can let PCs accomplish through extraordinary physical capacity.

 

[TheOneGargoyle]

Sure thing. I'm certainly enjoying it. It's a lot more fiddly than 5e in a way that is both a feature and a bug.

I don't even think that there's a ton happening that is incompatible with 5e. It's just that 5e designers seem to have a mental block regarding what they can let PCs accomplish through extraordinary physical capacity.

It's been a few weeks so apologies if this verges on thread necromancy, but I've been reflecting on this and wondering if I have that same mental block.....

Maybe I'm just taking your choice of phrase too literally, but when you say "through extraordinary physical capacity" do you really mean you would like to see high level non-casters being able to do things like (taking the example of Thor from earlier in the thread) throw around lightning, fly, etc via non magical means?

I guess I'm trying to get my head around that. I think I had it more in my head that people were suggesting that more martial characters could have access to power sources that would give them more magical abilities, like a storm herald barbarian for example, could get a choice of, you know, an actual storm like a thunder storm, and get the ability to wield lightning bolts and fly at higher levels. That sort of thing.

But to me that sort of ability would come from drawing on a primal power source and is still very much magicalor at least supernatural, even though it's not casting spells.

I think the bit I'm not understanding is, how would something like that come from pure physical prowess? Or am I misunderstanding what you meant?

 

[Minigiant]

Maybe I'm just taking your choice of phrase too literally, but when you say "through extraordinary physical capacity" do you really mean you would like to see high level non-casters being able to do things like (taking the example of Thor from earlier in the thread) throw around lightning, fly, etc via non magical means?

I guess I'm trying to get my head around that. I think I had it more in my head that people were suggesting that more martial characters could have access to power sources that would give them more magical abilities, like a storm herald barbarian for example, could get a choice of, you know, an actual storm like a thunder storm, and get the ability to wield lightning bolts and fly at higher levels. That sort of thing.

But to me that sort of ability would come from drawing on a primal power source and is still very much magicalor at least supernatural, even though it's not casting spells.

I'm not @Gammadoodler but my guess is that many want "martial characters" to do superheroic actions when they reach superheroic levels.

High level barbarians crashing through stone walls with ease, Fighters don't the "perfect strike" to cause fissures, tremors, and booms. Rangers tracking and sensing the weak points and touch points of planes to teleport between them.

This is before the whole concept of how a person who practiced weapon based violence for a decade or 2 could motion aggressively against someone who actively avoided weapons combat for as long and simply instantly have that person falling down into a pile of beaten pulp.

 

[Gammadoodler]

It's been a few weeks so apologies if this verges on thread necromancy, but I've been reflecting on this and wondering if I have that same mental block.....

Maybe I'm just taking your choice of phrase too literally, but when you say "through extraordinary physical capacity" do you really mean you would like to see high level non-casters being able to do things like (taking the example of Thor from earlier in the thread) throw around lightning, fly, etc via non magical means?

I guess I'm trying to get my head around that. I think I had it more in my head that people were suggesting that more martial characters could have access to power sources that would give them more magical abilities, like a storm herald barbarian for example, could get a choice of, you know, an actual storm like a thunder storm, and get the ability to wield lightning bolts and fly at higher levels. That sort of thing.

But to me that sort of ability would come from drawing on a primal power source and is still very much magicalor at least supernatural, even though it's not casting spells.

I think the bit I'm not understanding is, how would something like that come from pure physical prowess? Or am I misunderstanding what you meant?

Base Thor is probably a better comp than Thor+Mjolnir, but The Hulk might be even better. He is a leaping, punching, building destroying force of nature, and his "only" capabilities are that he is really strong and really durable.

I can't think of anything in 5e that comes close to modeling this. Meanwhile, compare a high-level caster vs. say Dr. Strange and it's not that far off.

Another alternative could be something like the wire-fu flying martial artists, hell, you could probably borrow a lot of the kinda out there physical capabilities from martial arts movies, anime, etc.

At the end of the day, it's a fantasy RPG. You can say characters can do badass superhuman stuff because they just can. You don't need to rationalize it with some special access to external power or magic or whatever.

I think this temptation to try and rationalize is kind of the source of the divide. You go.."Well it's still just a dude with a sword. They can't possibly do xyz" without even thinking about why that's true. Meanwhile, if you say.. "It's a magic dude with a sword," suddenly the world of possibilities opens up.

The thing is..these characters are equally imaginary..the only difference is what limitations you are willing to place on them based on a single descriptor.