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D&D 5E Casters vs Martials: Part 1 - Magic, its most basic components

GMforPowergamers

Adventurer
D&D is a caster power fantasy, but every time we try and get some of that for a non-caster, the "muh v-tude" crowd screams bloody murder to keep the game stuck in Revenge of the Nerds mode.
until my dying day no one will ever convince me that was not one of the top 3 sins of 4e.... though shall not give martial classes equal footing to casters.

Could you imagine if a fighter had a SoD effect?
 

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One of the reasons people scream bloody murder about the book of nine swords, was it Fighters did in fact get a save or die effect. It was described as one single perfect blow
I never understood the hate for Book of Nine Swords. It didn't make martial characters that much more powerful (and nowhere near a 3.5 caster for most games). However it did make playing one much more interesting and fun.
 

ehren37

Adventurer
Book of Nine Swords was awesome. I really liked the card mechanic for the Warblade, so you weren't doing a set rotation each fight (something encounter powers tended towards in 4E).

If we could get a "big boy" martial, I'd like to see it have something similar, or builders/consumers.

Would love to see mythic skill use too for non-casters. Pickpocket someone's memories, scare someone to death, lasso a tornado, or change the course of a river. Monks kind of get this, but as always, monks are weak spending too much design space on catching up to attack/defense baseline a class that used gear would, and is just too little, too late.
 

Book of Nine Swords was awesome. I really liked the card mechanic for the Warblade, so you weren't doing a set rotation each fight (something encounter powers tended towards in 4E).
that was crusader, Warblade was prep and know
If we could get a "big boy" martial, I'd like to see it have something similar, or builders/consumers.
yup

Would love to see mythic skill use too for non-casters. Pickpocket someone's memories, scare someone to death, lasso a tornado, or change the course of a river. Monks kind of get this, but as always, monks are weak spending too much design space on catching up to attack/defense baseline a class that used gear would, and is just too little, too late.
 

TheOneGargoyle

Explorer
One side of it is (IMO) more security within the single target damage niche. From what I've experienced so far, spells are powered down quite a bit especially as far as damage relative to what the fighter's, barbarians, and rogues are bringing to the table. And the casters that I've seen are waaay squishier getting fewer relative hit points per level and little way to get good armor proficiencies which makes them much easier to take down.

Another side of it is feats and the actions they support in combat. 5e has grappling rules, but almost nothing in the system refers to or makes use of them. And a martial character with a high mental stat will almost always have to go outside of their class to find tools that allow them to benefit from it.
In 2e, there are a ton of feats that encourage you to engage with crafting, intimidation, grappling/tripping/shoving, etc. and there are distinct benefits for doing so. You're almost never in a situation where all you've done on your turn is attack, and the non-attack actions rarely feel wasted.

In addition, martial feats largely continue to scale in power. With certain feat choices Barbarians can become dragons or giants, fighters can cut through the fabric of space, rogues can phase through walls, rangers can hunt things across planes.

I can't testify to how effective these things feel relative to spells at the equivalent levels, since I haven't gotten there yet, but the options alone help reinforce that these characters are heroic, not just dudes at the gym.
Ok that is really interesting, thanks!

I must say I like the sound of every single thing you said there :)
 

Ok that is really interesting, thanks!

I must say I like the sound of every single thing you said there :)
Sure thing. I'm certainly enjoying it. It's a lot more fiddly than 5e in a way that is both a feature and a bug.

I don't even think that there's a ton happening that is incompatible with 5e. It's just that 5e designers seem to have a mental block regarding what they can let PCs accomplish through extraordinary physical capacity.
 

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