D&D General Strong, Complex Villains

[Jacob Lewis]

It just occurred to me that I don't have signature showing on this site anymore. It is the same sig I have used for many years, even on different sites. I point it out here, now, because it is this:

"There are no self-proclaimed villains, only regiments of self-proclaimed saints. Victorious historians rule where good or evil lies."

- Glen Cook, The Black Company​

 

[Reynard]

The best villains are those that are absolutely convinced that they are the heroes.

I think those can be interesting villains, but I don't think they are "the best" by any stretch. A Great villain can absolutely own that they are a villain. itis the fact that they are a fully realized character that makes them a great villain.

Exhibit A: The Dark Knight (film) Joker.

 

[Reynard]

Did that come off as snark?? I'm sorry.

But, to be fair, a lot people have. a tendency to find offense where none is intended. So no matter what I write, or how I write it, someone will find reason to take offense because they want to be offended. (Probably not the case here. Just saying.)

For the record, it wasn't you initial post that was the problem for me, it was the follow up:

You're not going to learn anything if you keep asking for the cliff notes.

I felt that was intentionally offensive.

 

[Quickleaf]

What kinds of motivations and goals do you give your villains? What is your favorite villain you have used, or fought against, in a game? Do you design the adventure around the villain, or vice versa? What's your ultimate example of a great villain, from any medium, and how would you implement them in D&D?

I think I accidentally created a thoroughly compelling villain in our last story arc.

Horminutur was a tiefling orphan raised among scribes who was recruited into a spy ring operated by the vizier, spying on various temples to search out a conspiracy. In exchange for his services, the vizier promised him farmlands east of the city. However, Horminutur got overzealous and exposed himself. The vizier denied all connection and Horminutur was exiled. Over the years, the lands east of the city were given to human, dwarven, and halfling farmers. Feeling like he'd been denied his just reward, Horminutur began a campaign of mischief, terrorizing these farmers with various tricks (e.g. baiting a quasit to "haunt" a farm), pressuring them to pay him for his "protection" from whatever ailed them, and gradually strengthening his chokehold to try and pressure the farmers to sign their lands over to him. When the players grasped his backstory, they were very torn about how to handle Horminutur, eventually deciding to bring his case before the vizier themselves if he agreed to stop terrorizing farmers.

It was a really fun little adventure, because Horminutur was feigning death (he had bard spells) in a funeral party entering a necropolis, in order to eavesdrop on someone he thought was connected to the conspiracy. He was still trying to find his way back "in" with the vizier and spy ring. PCs had to assess which of three corpses was the one feigning death, then discretely clear the guests so they could take him down.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

THIS more than anything else. ESPECIALLY if the villain takes their stuff.

Heck, IME, most of the time, anyone who takes stuff from the PCs is automatically classified as a villain and is therefore set for righteous smiting.

This is the most true thing someone ever wrote. Ever.

take your players stuff and they will hate the villain forever.

I had this happen in my Dungeon of the Mad Mage campaign. Long story short, the players were around a dozen levels deep into the dungeon and were taking a magical portal that Halaster Blackcloak had set up to travel between the levels, trying to get up to the surface again to spend their gold and treasure, which contained magical runes that you would draw from a deck of photo-copied cards in order to decide which effect you would get when travelling through it (there's also a 50/50 chance of getting a good effect or a bad effect, so not only do you have to draw from the deck of cards and choose which player is targeted randomly, but you also have to determine if the effect is a boon or a bane).

The party's "banker" character that kept all of their gold and treasure on them ended up being the character effected by the Rune, with Bane effect of a card that would steal all of your character's valuable items off of their person and teleport them to Halaster's Hoard at the bottom of the entire dungeon (so about another dozen levels of the dungeon below the lowest the party had ever gotten at this point).

The party ended up losing about 90% of their valuables just due to sheer bad luck (which was around 100,000 gold pieces worth of treasure that they'd just recovered from spending multiple sessions in the dungeon).

Let's just say, when they eventually killed Halaster Blackcloak, they did so with way more hatred than they had for anyone else in the entire campaign, including when they'd killed the villains that had kidnapped or even killed a member of the party.

 

[Argyle King]

Like Thanos or Neegan!

or Rey "Skywalker"

 

[Asisreo]

The best villains are those that are absolutely convinced that they are the heroes.

One of my adventures features a vampire (Vampire Lord homebrewed to CR 25). He is dressed in white and gold and he's the first person the adventurers meet in the land. He tells the adventurers that he helped establish the government but the government officials have become corrupted by power and he needs the adventurers to take down the corrupt individuals while maintaining the country to keep the peace.

When the players meet the citizens, it's revealed that every bit of corruption he accuses of the other politicians are things he engages in as well. The only difference: he thinks he's justified to protect others that way.

He hires assassins, launders money, lies, cheats, and steals. But he always sees it as a necessary evil against the corruption. "Do whatever you can for the sake of the people." Yet the people continue to suffer directly for his actions. He refuses to see it. He's not selfish, just misguided.

But he always treats the party like they're his best friends. Openly sharing his supplies. Welcoming them in. Even constantly leaving himself partially exposed to garner trust.

Despite being a vampire, he operates in the day because he thinks it shows that he is willing to endure supernatural pains to be a good person. But it's only ironic to his citizens.

Sorry about the lore dump, this thread just reminded me of one of my adventures.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I think those can be interesting villains, but I don't think they are "the best" by any stretch. A Great villain can absolutely own that they are a villain. itis the fact that they are a fully realized character that makes them a great villain.

Exhibit A: The Dark Knight (film) Joker.

"The Dark Knight" would be a very different movie if it was told entirely from the Batman's point of view.

 

[Reynard]

"The Dark Knight" would be a very different movie if it was told entirely from the Batman's point of view.

I mean, sure, but I'm missing the connection to my post.

 

[Laurefindel]

What kinds of motivations and goals do you give your villains?

TO TAKE OVER THE WORLD!!! Mouahahaha!

ahem

well, actually, that what my present campaign’s villain wants…

She’s a cool villain-in-chief. Gives me the opportunity to monologue. Then she has many minions. And some minions turning against her to become proper villains in their own right to… take over the world I guess? Or maybe just the five nations of Khorvaire. Gotta start somewhere.