D&D 5E Casters vs Martials: Part 1 - Magic, its most basic components

[DND_Reborn]

no you will (You as in the 'don't want martial character to have equal abilities' not you per say) will just find ANY new thing to have an issue... that is just the LIE used to disrespect 4e ("Everyone has spells")

Ok, yes, a lot of players will shout against things that take the game out of their comfort level.

BTW, I appreciate the acknowledge me of not me, per se.

I never played 4E, never even seen the books, so I can't speak to what happens between players as far as 4E's "everyone has spells" debate.

 

[tetrasodium]

yes we want EQUAL power and options to priests nad wizards.

A lot of the posts in this thread are aiming for a bar wayyy past d&d clerics & wizards. Magic casters in multiple non-d&d works of fiction have been pointed to as a bar that needs to be met and at one point someone pointed to the feats performed by a bunch of demigods saying they were an example of mundane martials.

 

[DND_Reborn]

every single one is 'above normal people' You have singled out 1 type and said "But not super heroics"

For me there is a definite distinction between the three power levels (as I see them): mundane, heroic, superheroic.

Heroic is certain beyond the norm, but lies within the realm of what we imagine could be real (so to say).

Superheroic is well past heroic. Things that simply aren't possible and we understand that.

why is it okay for some players but not others?

I never said it wasn't, if that is what the players want to play.

me too

LOL, yep, deeeep breath!

I feel like it is one of those times when a face-to-face discussion would make things SO MUCH clearer.

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

You know, at this point I just feel like we are shouting past each other....

I think the argument is just on implementation at this point. If I'm not putting words in your mouth: You acknowledge that current Wizards are superheroic / mythical and you are ok with a mythical Fighter being in the game but you likely won't use it.

Then you have a buch of notions on implementation that many disagree with, mostly because you want to put restrictions on the design space --- just use subclasses, don't base the limiting mechanic on any mechanic that current spell casters use, etc.

 

[DND_Reborn]

These peoples' heads must explode when they look at something like Fate.

LOL they probably do.

I glanced at Fate once, well over a year ago, but never felt like it was for me.

 

[DND_Reborn]

that would be a start if WotC admitted that the classes are not balanced

I can't say what WotC would or wouldn't do. I'll freely acknowledge it, however.

A while ago there was a thread about which class was the most powerful at level 20. My vote was easily for Wizard. Some had good arguments for Sorcerers, and in a heads-up fight under predetermined conditions, even a Monk was plausible. But, pretty much everything else fell apart IMO.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I think the argument is just on implementation at this point. If I'm not putting words in your mouth: You acknowledge that current Wizards are superheroic / mythical and you are ok with a mythical Fighter being in the game but you likely won't use it.

No, you nailed it. If WotC or a player came to the table with a variant that allowed martials to rival casters (as they are), by having super-type features to rival spells, I would maybe entertain it for an adventure or two (just like when I used to play superhero RPGs). But, otherwise, no, it is not my cup of tea. Frankly, I wouldn't even mind helping with the design if someone wanted to tackle it because I enjoy game design!

Then you have a buch of notions on implementation that many disagree with, mostly because you want to put restrictions on the design space --- just use subclasses, don't base the limiting mechanic on any mechanic that current spell casters use, etc.

Well, to be fair, it isn't so much that I don't think you could implement that way, I would simply prefer to see it done differently so people (like myself LOL) wouldn't just view it as another form of magic (especially when 5E already has too much overlap IMO!).

 

[HammerMan]

I think the argument is just on implementation at this point. If I'm not putting words in your mouth: You acknowledge that current Wizards are superheroic / mythical and you are ok with a mythical Fighter being in the game but you likely won't use it.

Then you have a buch of notions on implementation that many disagree with, mostly because you want to put restrictions on the design space --- just use subclasses, don't base the limiting mechanic on any mechanic that current spell casters use, etc.

that is a big problem...
"I wont use these options those guys will...BUT I have to tell you how to limit those options I wont use anyway"

 

[DND_Reborn]

that is a big problem...

Is it, though?

"I wont use these options those guys will...BUT I have to tell you how to limit those options I wont use anyway"

My point was more if you hope to gain more support, steer away from implementation that seems too much just like another form of magic.

That is why when it was suggested the Fighter wasn't a good chassis, I showed how it could be. You can certainly use the Warlock, but I would think you'd get more resistance is all.

 

[Minigiant]

A lot of the posts in this thread are aiming for a bar wayyy past d&d clerics & wizards. Magic casters in multiple non-d&d works of fiction have been pointed to as a bar that needs to be met and at one point someone pointed to the feats performed by a bunch of demigods saying they were an example of mundane martials.

I don't think anyone said mundane martials should be demigods.

What is said is if one class is supposed to mimic demigod spellcasters, then it isn't ridiculous to hear people asking for classes that mimic demigod warriors and tricksters.