D&D 5E Casters vs Martials: Part 1 - Magic, its most basic components

[HammerMan]

Which really has nothing to do with the point of making a character at tier 4 to rival the power of casters.

no it is a start literally having as many option at 1st would be a start

Which is why you can put those options, etc. at the subclass award levels, of which the fighter gets.

or build a new class that functions they way we want

Which must either be equally limited (e.g. spell slots) or diminish but at-will. Other wise, it isn't equal.

yes that is the idea

LOL, then push back, because isn't that really what you want (to rival the archmages, etc.)??

Yes if a player sits a draws up a wizard at level 1 and another draws a fighter at level 1 i want them equal through each tier of play

so swordmasters to rival the archmage

Examples I have seen include Hulk, demigod heroes of old, anime/manga characters which are certainly super-human (as in not common at all).

I don't want common... no one said they want common... we are complaining that if we make martial characters we are stuck at common (less then real world humans)

If you don't want these things (which I certainly classify as superheroic, be it fantasy, sci-fi, or whatever), what, exactly, do you want?

if a player sits a draws up a wizard at level 1 and another draws a fighter at level 1 i want them equal through each tier of play

so swordmasters to rival the archmage

 

[HammerMan]

If you use a chassis such as warlock, with invocations and "spells" to represent mythical super features, it seems too much like just another brand of magic IMO.

not magic not spells

at will martial exploits (you get 3 out of 12 possible ones)
a list of martial exploit (you start with 2 at 1st level but can only use 1 per short rest, then get a 2nd sr recharge one at 2nd)
a list of min abilites like invocations (stances, manuviers, tricks

not magic just fantasy.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I mean, you could do what you are saying but I'm not sure why you care so much to preserve the existing Fighter chasis for all types.

Oh, you could use different classes, certainly, my point was just you could use the Fighter (while others felt it was not a good choice...), and I think it would work well if you developed the subclass features to meet the demand for the posters who want superheroic abilities to match high level spells.

As for warlock, I really hate this stance. It's the whole 4e Fighters are casting spells! I mean, I can't tell you how to "feel" about it and clearly you are not alone that this somehow feels like a brand of magic, but how is it not just a mechanic to put limits on powerful abilities? Just refluff to a combination of more intrinsic power source, need the right circumstance, and narrative conceit.

To me if the mechanic is the same, just with a different name, it might as well be the same.

I think there is valid argument that the game might be more interesting if every "power source" has it's own limiting mechanics -- one uses vanican, one power points, one a combination, etc. But there are perhaps only so many simple limiting mechanical frameworks to go around, so at some point limiting mechanics are going to feel a little similar (mechanically).

Oh, I agree. That was my point. I would rather see different mechanics used, which is why I just felt basing it on the warlock would make it too magical.

Look at the monk with ki. It's not magic, the monks don't have spell slots or the equivalent, etc. It is a different mechanic, at least as I see it.

 

[Minigiant]

As they stand, no there isn't. But that doesn't mean they couldn't be made. And having a PC who at 15th level has a subclass feature "Juggernaut" (you can smash through anything) and 18th subclass feature "Level the Field" (which you can slice a mountain in half or something) would seem pretty darn "fantastic and superheroic" IMO.

The points is that those subclasses and feats would have to be more powerful than the current ones by a noticeable amount.

Turning your 12th level fighter into an Asgardian/Aesir with personal legendary-ness would be so whined about compared to a champion fighter with GWM it would not be funny.

 

[HammerMan]

Oh, I agree. That was my point. I would rather see different mechanics used, which is why I just felt basing it on the warlock would make it too magical.

except what makes a few at wills, a few mini feats, and 2 sub classes mixed with shor rest recovery of low level scaling powers and long rest recovery of high level powers 'magic'?

If the fighter was built on that to begin with and warlock came out later would that make them less magical?

 

[HammerMan]

Turning your 12th level fighter into an Asgardian/Aesir with personal legendary-ness would be so whined about compared to a champion fighter with GWM it would not be funny.

one of the hurdles (and why I hope 6e fixes this day 1 by being more like 4e) is that any power increase gets "But Power creep"

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

LOL, then push back, because isn't that really what you want (to rival the archmages, etc.)??

Examples I have seen include Hulk, demigod heroes of old, anime/manga characters which are certainly super-human (as in not common at all).

If you don't want these things (which I certainly classify as superheroic, be it fantasy, sci-fi, or whatever), what, exactly, do you want?

Of course (some) people want high level superheroic, mythic heros.

The push back is "that's only for comic book superheroes and doesn't belong in D&D" despite earliest D&D referencing these mythic heros and despite many D&D editions fluff making martials sound like mythic heros even if they aren't backed up mechanically.

You are not one of those people, but you are a clearly influenced by not wanting mythic heros in your game (even if you would be ok with that option existing) and perceiving the martial/caster gap as narrower than others that are excited about mythic heros as an option. It's usually a good idea for the designer of something to actually be excited and like the concept they are designing for.

 

[Vaalingrade]

If you use a chassis such as warlock, with invocations and "spells" to represent mythical super features, it seems too much like just another brand of magic IMO.

And right here is where martial fans cant' have nice things.

The second we get some fantastic elements and exploits, they get called magic and are absorbed into the Wizard-blob.

 

[DND_Reborn]

no it is a start literally having as many option at 1st would be a start

Ok, fair enough. FWIW I think it is bad design to have some classes get subclasses at 1st, or 2nd, or 3rd levels. Our group gets them all at 1st level now because of this.

or build a new class that functions they way we want

Sure.

I don't want common... no one said they want common... we are complaining that if we make martial characters we are stuck at common (less then real world humans)

You missed the point. I know you don't want common. My point was the examples posters have been using are akin to superheroes (demigods, anime/manga, etc.) or are outright superheroes (Hulk), examples that are basically "superheroic".

You said:

when people come into these threads to silence us telling us we want dc comic super heroes we need to push back.

What you want is basically dc comic super heroes, or something akin to it, isn't it???

so swordmasters to rival the archmage

Which in order to do so, would have superheroic abilities... akin to super heroes.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Turning your 12th level fighter into an Asgardian/Aesir with personal legendary-ness would be so whined about compared to a champion fighter with GWM it would not be funny.

Agreed. The two are not even close to the same powerscale. Which is why if it was done, it would be a variant to the default design of 5E.