D&D 5E Silvery Barbs, how would you fix it? Does it need fixing?

[ECMO3]

If I understand it correctly, the first roll is used for two things: triggering the chance to use Barbs and acessing the probability of success (if that information is public in your table). From a statistical standpoint it is history, and won't affect the odds of succeding in the reroll. Is that correct?

This is correct.

 

[Bolares]

Ok, so I think I see where the problem with the better/worse than disadvantage argument comes from. It's better than disavantage from an informational point (you know the enemy had a success so you won't "waste it" on a failure. But it is worse on a statistical standpoint, because you have the same chance of success you had on the first roll.

So is it better or worse? It depends. It has advantages and disavantages against disavantage (What a crappy sentence).

 

[Dausuul]

This makes it more efficient in terms of spending the reaction and spell slot but FAR less mathematically powerful and less effective at causing a failed save (and I would argue less efficient in terms of being a spell known). The reason why is they have already suceeded on one of the rolls before you activate this. At that point the first roll is history and not statistically relevant to the chance of sucess or failure overall.

If you could cast it as a bonus action before casting another spell and impose straight disadvantage, the math would be different and it would be more powerful statistically.

Your math relies on subtracting 50 from 75 and getting 75. In other words: It's wrong.

In the situation where you are applying disadvantage to the roll, you end up with a 75% chance of landing the spell. But you already had a 50% chance to begin with. Disadvantage is only giving you an extra 25%.

In the situation where you are casting SB, you had a 0% chance of landing the spell--it already failed. SB increases that to 50%.

SB is flat better than disadvantage.

 

[Bolares]

Your math relies on subtracting 50 from 75 and getting 75. In other words: It's wrong.

In the situation where you are applying disadvantage to the roll, you end up with a 75% chance of landing the spell. But you already had a 50% chance to begin with. Disadvantage is only giving you an extra 25%.

In the situation where you are casting SB, you had a 0% chance of landing the spell--it already failed. SB increases that to 50%.

SB is flat better than disadvantage.

okay, I'm lost again

 

[Dausuul]

okay, I'm lost again

Forget the math. The simplest way to compare is this: Disadvantage and SB both let you force the enemy to make a second roll if they succeed on the first. (If they fail the first, neither disadvantage nor SB changes anything.) Overall, counting from the start of your turn, the total chance of landing the spell is the same either way.

However, disadvantage must be applied before you see the outcome of the first roll. SB lets you wait and save the resources if you don't need them. So it's better, because you only have to use it half as often.

ECMO3 is arguing that we should count from the moment SB and disadvantage respectively are applied, rather than from the start of the turn. That approach requires some math, but if you account for everything properly, it ends up in the same place: SB is still better. ECMO3 was doing the math right on SB but overvaluing disadvantage by a factor of 3.

 

[abirdcall]

Ok, so I think I see where the problem with the better/worse than disadvantage argument comes from. It's better than disavantage from an informational point (you know the enemy had a success so you won't "waste it" on a failure. But it is worse on a statistical standpoint, because you have the same chance of success you had on the first roll.

So is it better or worse? It depends. It has advantages and disavantages against disavantage (What a crappy sentence).

I'm not following you here.

If there is a 50% chance of success then with disadvantage they will only succeed 1 in 4 times.

With SB available they will also only succeed 1 in 4 times.

The difference is that SB only needs to be used twice in this scenario and the ability that makes the disadvantage needs to be used 4 times.

So in this scenario the sorcerer spends 12 sorcery points on heighten spell or 4 points (2 points as a psionic sorcerer) on SB and they also give advantage on a roll to an ally twice.

 

[Bolares]

I'm not following you here.

If there is a 50% chance of success then with disadvantage they will only succeed 1 in 4 times.

With SB available they will also only succeed 1 in 4 times.

The difference is that SB only needs to be used twice in this scenario and the ability that makes the disadvantage needs to be used 4 times.

So in this scenario the sorcerer spends 12 sorcery points on heighten spell or 4 points (2 points as a psionic sorcerer) on SB and they also give advantage on a roll to an ally twice.

I’ve been awake now for 36 hours straight. At this point, I’m not even following miself. Gonna go to bed. Bye

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

And yeah, they stack. That's a lot of resources to spend. You have to use a primary spell of some sort to support, use Heighten, then use Silvery Barbs to try again? That's the main spell, whatever that costs along with your action, and three sorcery points, and then your reaction and a first level spell slot.

Sounds wasteful to me.

Much less wasteful than having to burn another action and another high-end spell slot, plus fix whatever damage that opponent inflicts on your party before your initiative comes up again.
Take the Banishment example: You have already cast the spell (worth 7 SP) metamagicked with heightened spell (3 SP).
Casting Silvery Barb (2 SP) is much better value than casting Banishment (7 SP) again, for the same chance of banishing your opponent.

For making a creature fail a saving throw, this isn't even the best option. Unsettling Words does something similar at a lower cost.

1) How many subclasses do you think are currently in 5th edition D&D right now?
2) How many are capable of applying disadvantage to saving throws and attack rolls and ability checks cheaply?
3) How many can get access to Silvery Barbs?

It i absolutely correct. It is math. The save target and the reaction to use it are not independent variables, they are dependent variables.

I am not saying it is not worth casting once the succeded save has occurred. I am saying most of the time you have the opportunity to do that they will save again and it will be useless (advantage not withstanding).

And I am pointing out that this is a fallacy, because generally, you do not cast a spell that requires an opponent to fail a saving throw against an opponent with a good chance of making that saving throw.
Sure, you can make mistakes sometimes. But in general you don't cast spells with Constitution saves against Giants, and you don't cast spells with Wisdom saves against Druids.

If their chance to fail a save is small, your chance to use it will be small, meaning most of the time you will not have the opportunity to cast SB.

Great! You get to save the spell slot and can always use SB for something else!

If their chance to pass is high, most of the time they will pass the reroll.

If their chance to pass is high, why did you cast the initial spell in the first place, rather than a spell that was more likely to have an effect?

This makes it more efficient in terms of spending the reaction and spell slot but FAR less mathematically powerful and less effective at causing a failed save (and I would argue less efficient in terms of being a spell known). The reason why is they have already suceeded on one of the rolls before you activate this. At that point the first roll is history and not statistically relevant to the chance of sucess or failure overall.

You have still spent the spell slot to cause disadvantage with this comparison spell before throwing your big spell. This means that it is exactly as effective at causing a failed save and more mathematically powerful, because using SB is "free" a significant amount of the time (when your opponent fails their save the first time).

If you could cast it as a bonus action before casting another spell and impose straight disadvantage, the math would be different and it would be more powerful statistically.

Wot?
The statistics would be the same, the only difference is that using SB you would save on spell slots. Generally more than 50% of the time.

Note that we are getting bogged down on spell save discussions quite a bit, which is only one facet of the capabilities of SB. If you don't get to use SB to punch spells past saves, you can use it for ability checks or attack rolls instead. Versatility is power.

 

[NotAYakk]

Yep.

Every lucky high roll to escape , prevent, or land a grapple.

Every crit.

Every high attack roll that just beats the EK's shield-boosted AC.

Every "save or suck" the enemy beats.

All of these provide a great use of SB.

And even when the reroll doesn't work, you still hand out an advantage to your team.

In situations where you need to hold off for a shield/absorb elements/counterspell you have to be measured, and you need to be alive and stuff, but there are a pile of decent to high impact cases for this spell.

Many of these cases would make SB a great spell alone. Hence doing analysis on vreakibg through enemy saves; it competes with and stacks with top-tier class features of top-tier subclasses.

About the only bad thing about it is it isn't very good at level 1.

 

[ECMO3]

Your math relies on subtracting 50 from 75 and getting 75. In other words: It's wrong.

In the situation where you are applying disadvantage to the roll, you end up with a 75% chance of landing the spell. But you already had a 50% chance to begin with. Disadvantage is only giving you an extra 25%.

No its not wrong and mathematically it is not better than disadvantage.

Unless someone can successfully save on a 1, disadvantage will ALWAYS result in a higher chance of failing the save than using Sivery Barbs.

In the situation where you are casting SB, you had a 0% chance of landing the spell--it already failed. SB increases that to 50%. SB is flat better than disadvantage.

If the chance of suceeding on the save after you cast Sivery Barbs is 50% then the chance of succeeding on the same save with disadvantage is 25%. This is a mathematical fact.