Pathfinder 2E The Pathfinder Subform Is Definitely Dead - So What?

[Thomas Shey]

I was excited to read this since I think the APs have lost a step. Then, realized its an odd complaint about APs online presence? Paizo has been an internet based store for over a decade. I have only used PDFs in F2F and now VTTs since 2009. The dedicated AP specific forums were/are invaluable to running the APs. I'm not sure exactly what Paizo is supposed to do to make APs more online?

Yeah, I'm a little puzzled about that too, unless the premise is that online play is more likely to be episodic. Which hasn't been my personal experience, but that experience may not be reflective of most other people.

 

[Thomas Shey]

In some respects, I'm not sure what "better marketing" for PF2e would look like; as it is, talking about it with people outside the PF2e community often turns into edition wars with PF1e fans or system wars with D&D5e fans, neither of which seem too useful.

 

[JThursby]

They should also rethink their website. I have a very hard time to buy their PDFs due to links to paper versions of the products being very present, and if someone has a buying impulse, finding how to get the PDF immediately should help.

Oh yeah, the website could use a redo (again).

I was excited to read this since I think the APs have lost a step. Then, realized its an odd complaint about APs online presence? Paizo has been an internet based store for over a decade. I have only used PDFs in F2F and now VTTs since 2009. The dedicated AP specific forums were/are invaluable to running the APs. I'm not sure exactly what Paizo is supposed to do to make APs more online?

I explained my point poorly, so let me try again. Imagine you're a GM looking through the Pathfinder 2e reddit. You read about Strength of Thousands and think an African-inspired magical school campaign would be great for your players. You go to the Paizo store and find to get Strength of Thousands you need to buy all six parts as separate payments of $17.99, over $100 dollars total. They won't even be in the same document, you'll have six different pdfs to flip through to get the whole picture of the campaign. There's no bundle to entice buying the whole thing. The only VTT options are Roll20 and Fantasy Grounds, which all cost the full $25 dollars per module instead of the PDF price, and are platforms that have notoriously bad implementations of the PF2e rules, plus have their own outrageous expenses to begin with. You may be willing to pay those prices for a game you know your group will stick with, like 5e, but are you willing to pay the same prices on a game you're not sure they'll stick with? Within the span of a few minutes of thought Strength of Thousands has gone from an enticing idea of a campaign to a procession of unnecessary inconveniences, risks and expenses to the prospective buyer. People don't pick up first modules of APs on impulse in a digital storefront the same way they would in a traditional storefront, other strategies need to be brought to bear to build an audience. Would this be less of a barrier if there was a lot more buzz behind the campaign, like with the popularity of Abomination Vaults? Maybe. But so far we haven't seen an ability for Paizo to regularly produce hype behind their 2e APs. Until Paizo finds their step and gets to generating hype the best thing they can do is re-organize their existing content into a form factor that presents itself as more affordable and more convenient to digital buyers.

I can confirm that the PF2 General subforum of the Pathfinder Discord is very lively.

I'm there too, there's just not a lot of discussion about stuff I find interesting. A lot of it is hot takes on mechanics and relative class strength, general white room stuff. I'm more interested in the potential for telling stories using the systems and lore of Pathfinder, not so much lamenting about some classes dealing slightly less damage on a hypothetically average turn than some other classes.

Mod Note:
And use of "tribe" for this is... interesting, to say the least.

This is clearly used in the context of tribalism, the tendency for "my side vs your side" mentality that turns discussions toxic.
Come on, this is exactly what I'm talking about. I don't appreciate the implied accusation of racism, and it coming from staff only makes it worse. It's unreasonable. It also illustrates my point: how eager are people going to be to post their genuine and benign thoughts if they think it might be perceived as deviation?

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This is unrelated to any of the above, but I would like more active discussion about PF2e stuff. I was waiting to see if there was going to be a review of the Lost Omens: Absalom book, but since one hasn't manifested I am considering writing my own. I've been enjoying the book immensely, it not only contains tons of interesting lore but is structured in a way that makes the process of reading it and imagining how to run it an absolute joy. I'm in the process of setting up the content it has into Foundry and might also do a companion write up for my thoughts of running such a huge city location in a virtual table top setting.

 

[payn]

I explained my point poorly, so let me try again. Imagine you're a GM looking through the Pathfinder 2e reddit. You read about Strength of Thousands and think an African-inspired magical school campaign would be great for your players. You go to the Paizo store and find to get Strength of Thousands you need to buy all six parts as separate payments of $17.99, over $100 dollars total. They won't even be in the same document, you'll have six different pdfs to flip through to get the whole picture of the campaign. There's no bundle to entice buying the whole thing. The only VTT options are Roll20 and Fantasy Grounds, which all cost the full $25 dollars per module instead of the PDF price, and are platforms that have notoriously bad implementations of the PF2e rules, plus have their own outrageous expenses to begin with. You may be willing to pay those prices for a game you know your group will stick with, like 5e, but are you willing to pay the same prices on a game you're not sure they'll stick with? Within the span of a few minutes of thought Strength of Thousands has gone from an enticing idea of a campaign to a procession of unnecessary inconveniences, risks and expenses to the prospective buyer. People don't pick up first modules of APs on impulse in a digital storefront the same way they would in a traditional storefront, other strategies need to be brought to bear to build an audience. Would this be less of a barrier if there was a lot more buzz behind the campaign, like with the popularity of Abomination Vaults? Maybe. But so far we haven't seen an ability for Paizo to regularly produce hype behind their 2e APs. Until Paizo finds their step and gets to generating hype the best thing they can do is re-organize their existing content into a form factor that presents itself as more affordable and more convenient to digital buyers.

That makes much more sense. Doing as much as possible to make VTT work effortlessly with PFRPG products would be a good move for Paizo. Maybe even an absolutely necessary move since folks who subbed up may have to purchase another product to run VTT. Pre-pandemic this wasnt an issue since many subbers didn't use VTT, but now...

However, I do think you get a lot for those 17.99 modules. In my experience, the beefy paragraphs explaining each module in the path is pretty adequate to making a decision to jump in. This is also where the invaluable part comes in for the sub-forums (at least in the past with PF1). Perhaps reddit and discord have taken over this heavy lifting? I dont think a complete package deal is out of the question, but I doubt a hefty discount is in order. After reading about wages and difficulties in the industry, I find these prices completely fair based on amount of game time I get out of them. Clearly, YMMV. There is, of course, the stand alone module line, albeit, with fewer options than the decade + AP line.

Also, ive done some of the 5E WOTC AP stuff... It just doesn't compare.

 

[Umbran]

This is clearly used in the context of tribalism, the tendency for "my side vs your side" mentality that turns discussions toxic.

Mod Note:
Per the Terms and rules of the site (linked on the bottom of every page), if you feel a need to comment on moderation, we ask and require you to take that to private message with a member of the staff. Please do not clutter the thread with arguing with moderators.

 

[Retreater]

The only VTT options are Roll20 and Fantasy Grounds, which all cost the full $25 dollars per module instead of the PDF price, and are platforms that have notoriously bad implementations of the PF2e rules, plus have their own outrageous expenses to begin with.

I don't want to be that "Foundry VTT guy" but a one time purchase of $50 gets you that VTT. There's a brilliant PDF importer that works for legally purchased PDFs that loads them into Foundry, with monsters, maps (with dynamic lighting), tokens, etc. I didn't believe it myself, coming from Roll20 (where I loaded in Age of Ashes and Abomination Vaults over many hours). Here it was done for me in minutes for no extra cost.
If you're thinking about PF2 online, it's a great option. It's not my system, but I'd be happy to give you more information if you'd like.

 

[JThursby]

However, I do think you get a lot for those 17.99 modules. In my experience, the beefy paragraphs explaining each module in the path is pretty adequate to making a decision to jump in. This is also where the invaluable part comes in for the sub-forums (at least in the past with PF1). Perhaps reddit and discord have taken over this heavy lifting? I dont think a complete package deal is out of the question, but I doubt a hefty discount is in order.

If all that was newly offered was a single, combined PDF at the combined cost of the adventure path, that in and of itself represents a significant increase in convenience and enticement. Clicking on "buy now" once to get a single document with everything you need is much less of a barrier than having to do the same thing six times and having six opportunities to rethink your purchase. I know this sounds like nit-picking, but Paizo really should be doing low-effort things like this when possible.

Also, ive done some of the 5E WOTC AP stuff... It just doesn't compare.

I like both Chris Perkins and James Jacobs work quite a lot, whenever I see either of them head a project in either company I'm there day one. There's quality to be had in both games, I'm not willing to throw either product totally under the bus just because of some botched projects like Tyranny of Dragons or Age of Ashes.

I don't want to be that "Foundry VTT guy"

Don't worry, I'm one of those guys too. That module is great, and it has saved me literal days of prep work. Still, Paizo should either be doing more to sell stuff to us or broadcast that such great fan support exists, and will persist, on their website or social media platforms. It would be good for community engagement and also let more people know how cheap and easy it is to get into their game.

 

[Kaodi]

I'm there too, there's just not a lot of discussion about stuff I find interesting. A lot of it is hot takes on mechanics and relative class strength, general white room stuff. I'm more interested in the potential for telling stories using the systems and lore of Pathfinder, not so much lamenting about some classes dealing slightly less damage on a hypothetically average turn than some other classes.

I suppose that it is fair. I am not exocist by any means but I love that whiteboard stuff and making character builds (which perhaps makes it ironic that I never talk in the actual builds subforum). I do not think those sort of crunch discussions are entirely divorced from storytelling though - at least for some players. Having fun is, I think, probably a prerequisite for telling good stories. And fun can be harder to come by if your character build does not achieve the level of effectiveness you require.

 

[Thomas Shey]

I see I'm again the guy who sees "VTT" and does not assume automation past the ability to make die rolls, port maps and move tokens when everyone else apparently does.

 

[Thomas Shey]

I suppose that it is fair. I am not exocist by any means but I love that whiteboard stuff and making character builds (which perhaps makes it ironic that I never talk in the actual builds subforum). I do not think those sort of crunch discussions are entirely divorced from storytelling though - at least for some players. Having fun is, I think, probably a prerequisite for telling good stories. And fun can be harder to come by if your character build does not achieve the level of effectiveness you require.

Being able to get a good result for what I was aiming for in a character absolutely effected how well my wife and I engaged with our characters in our current campaign.