D&D 5E Exhaustion for old 1e undead level drain

[DEFCON 1]

I miss it. I miss the grit of AD&D. Probably why I’m goin got go back to it. 5E and it’s hand holding (3 saves to avoid being turned to stone? Etc) just seems really odd to me.

And I guess I never had a bad experience with Level Drain. Yeah it happened but nothing a NPC Cleric at the next bag city couldn’t fix, just had to be ready to trade a magic item or 2 for the spell.

I have a hard time reconciling the idea of the "grit" of level drain if it can be removed at the next city for a couple magic items. So it's a "gritty" game in the moment it happens, but then once the adventure is over and you pay some GP the grit goes away? Personally, I don't see the point.

To each their own I guess... but me personally that just seems like a silly vicious circle that no character in their right mind would ever do-- go out to adventure to find treasure, but get so hurt doing it that you immediately have to spend said treasure just to fix all the problems you acquired by going out in the first place. You might as well just stay home.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I share @DEFCON 1's sentiment about it.

I liked level draining in AD&D, but that is because we played there was no way to reverse it short of a wish spell. THAT made it really scary because 95% of the time, if you had a level drained, you had to earn it all over again. So, faces such foes meant extreme caution, which I find later editions lack often enough.

As much as I like the ideas of HD draining, ability scores, etc., it is too easy in 5E to recover these even, so the point made above remains: Why bother if you can just undo it with rest? Even the effect is often not enough to place the target in immediate danger.

The closest I've really seen is one or more levels of exhaustion or multiple HD.

 

[Quartz]

I liked level draining in AD&D, but that is because we played there was no way to reverse it short of a wish spell.

The problem as I remember it back then was that it disproportionately affected the front line. By the time you found that you were dealing with something that drained levels the fighters had lost a level or two while the spellcasters had not. That was okay in a one-shot horror game but in an ongoing campaign it only exacerbated the linear fighter / quadratic wizard problem.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I have a hard time reconciling the idea of the "grit" of level drain if it can be removed at the next city for a couple magic items. So it's a "gritty" game in the moment it happens, but then once the adventure is over and you pay some GP the grit goes away? Personally, I don't see the point.

In my experience it wasn't this easy in most campaigns. Restoration was a level 7 cleric spell, so you had to find at least a 16th level cleric (and more often a 17th level cleric). Plus there is a time limit (it must be cast within 1 day per level of the caster from the time of the drain).

If people don't like level drain, that is totally cool. I understand why. But there is a reason why people don't like it, and it isn't because it is pointless. It is because it is highly punitive and very 'gritty'. That grittiness can be balanced out by a generous GM or a setting where restoration is easily available and the people who cast it don't ask for extraordinary help in return. But it was a pretty gritty way of playing the game in mine, and I think most peoples experience, which is one of the reasons why it isn't liked (because it can be very deflating to lose levels and not everyone thought that the thrill it added to play was worth the downside on the other end-----particularly for some of the issues the OP presented)

 

[DND_Reborn]

The problem as I remember it back then was that it disproportionately affected the front line. By the time you found that you were dealing with something that drained levels the fighters had lost a level or two while the spellcasters had not. That was okay in a one-shot horror game but in an ongoing campaign it only exacerbated the linear fighter / quadratic wizard problem.

Experiences vary, of course.

IIRC, the four undead that would level drain in AD&D (MM1 anyway) were Wights and Wraiths (1 level each), Spectres and Vampires (2 levels each). Of those creatures, Wights had Average Intelligence, Wraiths were Very Intelligent, Specters were High, and Vampire had Exceptional Intelligence. So, understanding in AD&D how powerful casters could be, especially wizards, those PCs were often targeted first if it was obvious what they were by intelligent enemies. Clerics, who might turn or destroy such undead, if identified, were always attacked first if possible due to the additional threat they presented to such monsters.

Also, in our games such creatures were so feared that often if you were likely to encounter one, you knew it might happen and / or would know of the capabilities from the legend lore, etc. of the fantasy world (e.g. people knew vampires "drink blood", etc.).

Front-liners usually had better ACs, so where harder to hit, as well, IME.

 

[Lyxen]

If people don't like level drain, that is totally cool. I understand why. But there is a reason why people don't like it, and it isn't because it is pointless. It is because it is highly punitive and very 'gritty'.

With all due respect, punitive of what ? Of being a martial and not having luck on dice rolls ?

And no, it's not "gritty" to me, it's a very bizarre magical effect that takes you back in time.

It was very frightening, but also very unbalanced and really not fun, at least to us, unless there was something to cure it, which sort of defeated the point.

 

[Bedrockgames]

With all due respect, punitive of what ? Of being a martial and not having luck on dice rolls ?

And no, it's not "gritty" to me, it's a very bizarre magical effect that takes you back in time.

It was very frightening, but also very unbalanced and really not fun, at least to us, unless there was something to cure it, which sort of defeated the point.

Punitive for either being unlucky or making a choice that leads to you getting drained. The point was it is punitive in that it is painful. It isn't fun for you, that is fair. For me it adds a lot of thrill to the game. And for the point you mention: it makes undead frightening

 

[Voadam]

The fact that you can't non-magically heal level drain was a bit genre jarring. In Dracula they give transfusions and rest to help vampire bite victims recover. In AD&D the only mechanical options are for you to call in high level clerics to magic victims better.

Also the fact that 1e vampires inflict strong blows that drain two energy levels but do not actually bite and suck blood was another jarring genre mismatch to AD&D mechanics.

"Vampires have 18/76 strength.
If a vampire scores a hit upon an opponent, its powerful blow causes 5-10 points
of damage, and its powerful negative force drains 2 life energy levels from the
victim, complete with corresponding losses in hit dice, ability level, attack level,
etc."

You have to get into 2e Ravenloft before you get blood drinking mechanics for vampires.

 

[DND_Reborn]

The fact that you can't non-magically heal level drain was a bit genre jarring. In Dracula they give transfusions and rest to help vampire bite victims recover. In AD&D the only mechanical options are for you to call in high level clerics to magic victims better.

Also the fact that 1e vampires inflict strong blows that drain two energy levels but do not actually bite and suck blood was another jarring genre mismatch to AD&D mechanics.

"Vampires have 18/76 strength.
If a vampire scores a hit upon an opponent, its powerful blow causes 5-10 points
of damage, and its powerful negative force drains 2 life energy levels from the
victim, complete with corresponding losses in hit dice, ability level, attack level,
etc."

You have to get into 2e Ravenloft before you get blood drinking mechanics for vampires.

Yeah, the "mechanics" for the narrative in AD&D was lacking in many cases...

 

[DarkCrisis]

I have a hard time reconciling the idea of the "grit" of level drain if it can be removed at the next city for a couple magic items. So it's a "gritty" game in the moment it happens, but then once the adventure is over and you pay some GP the grit goes away? Personally, I don't see the point.

To each their own I guess... but me personally that just seems like a silly vicious circle that no character in their right mind would ever do-- go out to adventure to find treasure, but get so hurt doing it that you immediately have to spend said treasure just to fix all the problems you acquired by going out in the first place. You might as well just stay home.

Adventurers are insane. Any sane one would immediately retire for life after amassing 100 gold coins they found in their first goblin caves. Find a magic +1 sword? Sale it and you and your kids are set for life.

Adventurers want glory as much as gold.