D&D 5E Exhaustion for old 1e undead level drain

[toucanbuzz]

Level drain was a fun AD&D threat IF you could avoid it. When it actually hit, less fun and hurt feelings unless your DM generously stocked treasure hoards with greater restoration spells and house-ruled the XP loss didn't apply.

Personally, I lean to removing the save for drain effects to give 5E drain that AD&D deadly feel.

 

[Voadam]

And that is the only one.

Yeah but they are a low CR common monster that are in a lot of older edition modules and with bounded accuracy could reasonably show up a lot in a 5e game.

Note that it does not even say to recompute bonuses. It's sort of obvious in a sense, but since the mechanism is explained nowhere else, it's still a complete oddity.

It was a big what? moment when I first read the strength drain description in the 5e MM given the rest of 5e and the design goals. The lack of explicit explanation of the consequences of draining strength was perplexing and I agree the whole thing is a big 5e oddity.

 

[Seramus]

I always found it great fun if we had the means to remove level drain, either through or own spells or limping home to pay for a cleric. Resources spent, but not quite permanent.

The fear of losing levels when you couldn't afford to fix it was also real, and thrilling as heck.

Actually losing the levels and not being able to do anything about it? That caused maaaany tables to explode. Even a few people quitting the hobby entirely. I can see why it was toned down.

For the OP? I love exhaustion as the level drain substitute. Maybe tweak the exhaustion chart to make it more impactful for casters.

 

[Lyxen]

Level drain was a fun AD&D threat IF you could avoid it. When it actually hit, less fun and hurt feelings unless your DM generously stocked treasure hoards with greater restoration spells and house-ruled the XP loss didn't apply.

I always found it great fun if we had the means to remove level drain, either through or own spells or limping home to pay for a cleric. Resources spent, but not quite permanent.

See what I mean ? I don't see anyone arguing for the hardcore level drain of AD&D.

Actually losing the levels and not being able to do anything about it? That caused maaaany tables to explode. Even a few people quitting the hobby entirely. I can see why it was toned down.

Even with some toning down, it's it indeed terrifying, but it has to be at least the 3(.5) version. Moreover, the larger problem is that it imposes recomputations, something that 5e does not like, it really slows down the game.

 

[Voadam]

Level drain was a great story connection to play a former high level character as a low level one in a new campaign. I did that a number of times.

AD&D level drain was harsh enough that it inhibited me as a DM from using many level draining undead in D&D as opponents. And I ran a lot of Ravenloft. I am much more comfortable throwing undead at my players in 5e.

 

[Lyxen]

Level drain was a great story connection to play a former high level character as a low level one in a new campaign. I did that a number of times.

It sort of worked now and then, but it caused us problems in AD&D because of equipment.

AD&D level drain was harsh enough that it inhibited me as a DM from using many level draining undead in D&D as opponents. And I ran a lot of Ravenloft. I am much more comfortable throwing undead at my players in 5e.

Indeed.

 

[billd91]

Count me in as never liking level drain from AD&D days. I never liked the idea of a PC losing abilities gained like proficiencies and knowledge of spells via being damaged by something. What? We're going back in time or losing memory?

So I house ruled it in my 2e (really, 1e/2e hybrid) games so that PCs had as many "life levels" as hit dice and those were what was lost due to level drain. Each one lost inflicted -1 to hit/damage. Characters with lost life levels lost their Dex bonuses to AC and made rolls against their characteristics (d20 under the value) at a penalty. These persisted until the life levels were regained. These could be regained via restoration spells or killing the creature that caused the drain and then resting. Each level took 1 month to regain. If they didn't kill the undead creature, restoration was the only recourse because those life levels were 'bound up' in the creature that took them.
Still significant penalties/danger - but you didn't lose abilities you had learned/unlocked by leveling up. You just got weaker in your adventuring.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

The problem with level draining in earlier editions was all the damn math.

I started working out an exhaustion mechanic as a substitute in 3.5Ed way back in 2012 or so. As their energy was drained, PCs would become Fatigued => Exhausted => Staggered => Unconscious. It felt right. I mean, what is “energy draining” if not being sapped of energy- I.O.W., becoming to tired to function properly.

Even though it did impact martial characters worse, it wasn’t a cakewalk for the casters, either. Once they started down the track of losing defenses, mobility and actions, they were hosed as much as anyone else.

It was VERY scary, at every level. Even though the damage was temporary, no PC was more than a few draining hits from near incapacity.

The only problem I had was laziness- I didn’t want to track down and potentially rewrite or eliminate all the various energy draining things in the game to fit the mechanic. (There were a LOT of spells…)

 

[Lanefan]

It's not terrifying, it's annoying as hell and totally stops the fun since you become unable to finish the adventure.

I think that's kind of the point, isn't it; that the adventure fights back and does its best to prevent you from finishing it?

This was our real experience in I6. It really was a stupid module, with sentences like "Strahd attacks a single PC for 5 melee rounds, then leaves." Since it's for levels 5-7, that's one dead PC, and even if he survives, he is unable to do anything in the rest of the adventure. And I'm not speaking of the number of vampires, wraiths and banshees in the rest of the castle.

Again, that's the point. Strahd ain't there to be nice and invite the PCs in for a nice sup of tea; he's defending his home against invaders and using whatever he can bring to bear to do so. And if one batch of his minions can't kill you they can still weaken you, to make the job easier for the next batch of minions; and if the PCs aren't wise enough to retreat to town for reinforcements and recovery that's on them. (I6 is one of the very few old-school modules I don't own and haven't read so I'll confess to not knowing whether that module traps the PCs in Strahd's realm or not)

It's war, not sport, and there's going to be casualties. Survival is priority one.

So no, it was a very bad mechanic even when used sparingly, and even worse in Ravenloft.

It's only a bad mechanic if you expect adventures to be sporting, without lasting or expensive consequences.

 

[Lanefan]

But which version ? Are there still that many people playing hardcore AD&D 1 level drain ? Where there is almost no way to get it back and you have to continue adventuring with other characters 2 or 4 levels above you ?

You're assuming there's not already that much level variance within the party to begin with.

In 1e it's common to have a fairly wide level variance within a party. Experience has taught me that if you take the party's average level, anything within a + or - 2 range from that is usually viable; except at low levels it's + or - half the average instead.

So, if the party average is 6th the viable range is about 4th-8th; if the party average is 3rd then 2nd-4th is viable; if the average is 9th then 7th-11th works fine, and so on.

It worked for us as a club at the time, because even drained characters could adventure with other characters of their level from other people in other modules. But are there still people playing that way ?

Yes. One of them is typing this right now.