D&D General The Rakshasa and Genie Problem

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Since the art for the 5E djinn was shown earlier, here's some of the art for the 4E djinn, with Sirrajadt himself being the last one.
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Wait, what?

There's an iconic Djinn out there named Sirrajadt? Really?

I ask this because for the Genie who has become an ongoing feature of my own campaign I dreamed up the name Zeirijat out of thin air; the spelling is different but Zeirijat and Sirrajadt sound almost exactly the same when spoken. Amazing!
 

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America is closely linked to Europe by history, politics, ethnicity, language, and culture. The heritage of the United States of America is clearly European dominant.

The US occupies an unusual cultural space I think because the culture is a fusion of so many things. Probably too big a topic for this thread, but I think we both feel connected to Europe and disconnected from it in a lot of ways. I also think America is a place that is accustomed to experiencing a fusion with incoming cultures that help shape the culture itself.
 

To my esteemed colleague, the gentlemen from Helldritch.

I regret to inform you that my analysis did not say the Efreeti were the only Arabic presence in core D&D.

"In core D&D genies are the most obviously Arabic connection in the game, and genies in core D&D are most prominent for the cruel slave-owning Lawful Evil Efreeti of the City of Brass."

I do vaguely remember the Ring of Djinni Summoning being in a book along with an Efreeti Bottle.

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For some reason Efreeti stuck out more as top of mind.

I do appreciate your efforts on behalf of the Djinn of . . . whatever the name of their iconic air citadel is called to show that everyone should consider them objectively as prominent in D&D as Efreeti of the City of Brass.
The Djinn Ambassador from the Ice and Steel citadel of the Djinn Caliphate thanks you for acknowledging them.
The Efreet Ambassador, however, promise you pain and horrible burns for being such a turn coat in mentionning that damn bottle...

Ahem...
For our topic, of course the Efreeti have a better focus on them. They are supposed to be opponents and the opportunities to see them in play is greater than to see a Djinn. Unless you play an evil type campaign, your vilains will be "evil", especially if coming from the outer planes (or in this case, elemental plane). Players need foes more than they need allies. It is a game centered around the "Heroic deeds" of the characters. It does not mean that it is a mean by which Arabian culture is depicted as evil. Context can explain a lot of thing if you stop to look at it.
 

Ahem...
For our topic, of course the Efreeti have a better focus on them. They are supposed to be opponents and the opportunities to see them in play is greater than to see a Djinn. Unless you play an evil type campaign, your vilains will be "evil", especially if coming from the outer planes (or in this case, elemental plane). Players need foes more than they need allies. It is a game centered around the "Heroic deeds" of the characters. It does not mean that it is a mean by which Arabian culture is depicted as evil. Context can explain a lot of thing if you stop to look at it.

Again, you can have villains who are coded Arab. However, it's really bad to have said villains be terrible Arab stereotypes.
 


GreyLord

Legend
There does seem to be a double standard as to usage of various cultures and myths in ttrpg's and when it is brought up said person faces accusations/implications of racism or accusations such as arguing in bad faith. Also a search for such a problem will always find one whether it exists or not. Don't get me wrong, poor usage of culture myth and race can be racist but not all usage is and too often something derived from a culture is enough to get called problematic.

Instead of automatically being offended on another's behalf maybe research or discuss with relevant people to see if it is in fact racist or insulting. Others that are seeking to be offended on another's behalf and the professionally offended are not relevant people to get these answers when you seek to discuss with relevant parties. Members of culture/race in question or experts in involved topics are.

That actually can give very different (and opposing answers) at times.

A prime example of this is the word Oriental (And please forgive me for using this, this is as an example, I am not trying to offend anyone). For some individuals in Canada and the United States they find it offensive to refer to Asian-Americans in that manner. There are other groups in the same nations that do not.

Even more varied is that overall, in China, Japan, and most of East Asia, they PREFER it to other terms and do not understand why anyone would NOT use the term Oriental verses the more generic Asian (which refers to a MUCH LARGER area in their eyes, and seeing that they do not always agree with some other nations in Asia, is not as agreeable). In some ways the entire thing can be seen as insulting them when people try to speak up in regards to what is or is not offensive to them, especially in relation to that term. Many of them find it offensive that Americans assume things and try to define over a Billion people rather than agree with the rest of the world. Of course, many of them would prefer to be called under their nationality (Chinese, Vietnamese, etc) than a more generic term.

In some other places the term Oriental (or even better, their nationality of where they are actually from, such as Chinese, Japanese, Korean, etc) are preferred than the more generic term Asian, the term Asian being more offensive to some of them.

This can make publishing anything related to content from those areas a minefield for a publisher. If you use one term you offend many North Americans. If you use another term you may make the Americans happy but offend just about every other group in the world under that ethnicity (which is a LOT MORE than Americans under that ethnicity or ancestry).

In many ways the younger Asian-Americans want to be ACCEPTED by others (such as whites or other ethnicities in the US), and some of the Older Generation cannot understand the qualms against the term by the younger Generation in America itself. At the same time, Younger americans also have seen the term used in a derogatory manner (while much of the rest of the world did not) which also makes them want the term to never be used in reference to them or anyone else.

This makes a strong split between several different groups. If you cater to one, you'll crater your sales to another. For D&D currently this may not be as big of a problem (as they are an American company most of their sales are to Americans, those from rest of the world do not count as much of a source of their sales), but for other businesses this could be a major obstacle as China and other markets are seen as a pretty good chunk of your income if you cater to them.

Even in the US and Canada you can find divisions, especially between older and younger generations.

Prime example of this can be found on this NPR story.

On the words we use to describe ourselves

It can be a tough line to publish some types of materials even if you talk to those from those groups as the similar people across the globe may be offended differently. Asking them about what to do or what they prefer may actually differ depending on what geographic region you are talking to, and where they are from, what generation, and many other factors. Even with the discussions it may not be as clear cut or easy to understand as some may think.
 
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What Bad Arab tropes? Like I can't think of what makes Efreet particularly evil in a way other evil groups are not.

I mean, the immediate ones being ruthless slave traders, which has added baggage in the context of the Arab coding. While other evil races do that, it's worth noting that it has more cultural baggage with Arab stereotypes and also we should probably get away from the gratuitous usage of slavery as an indicator of evilness. The latter is a conversation that would be nice to have, but the last time I saw a thread on slavery it was handled "maturely" enough that it was closed by Morrus after 4 hours.
 

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
I mean, they could also just reflect on the critiques. We're half a year removed from the release of The Mwangi Expanse, which got pretty universal praise. It's a fantastic sourcebook on the region with a lot of interesting cultures and hooks to it. You can totally do this sort of thing, you just have to put some effort into it. ToA didn't really put much into Chult, and it got called out for that. The response should not be to back away, but to actually do better the next time.
The response should be to do better, but the far more likely response (especially for an industry leader) is to back away. It's the only way to avoid this kind of criticism. I think a lot of content creators would do the same.
 

I mean, the immediate ones being ruthless slave traders, which has added baggage in the context of the Arab coding. While other evil races do that, it's worth noting that it has more cultural baggage with Arab stereotypes and also we should probably get away from the gratuitous usage of slavery as an indicator of evilness. The latter is a conversation that would be nice to have, but the last time I saw a thread on slavery it was handled "maturely" enough that it was closed by Morrus after 4 hours.
As long as slavery is depicted as bad I don't have issues with it being depicted.

The Efreet as well are evil in Arab myth, and are known to keep slaves there.
 

The response should be to do better, but the far more likely response (especially for an industry leader) is to back away. It's the only way to avoid this kind of criticism. I think a lot of content creators would do the same.

I mean, it hasn't been for everyone. The reason it is for Wizards is that they have a very conservative fanbase when it comes to the product and thus they try to split the difference by making quiet half-changes that end up pissing everyone off in the end. I mean, I remember reading the critiques of ToA and they are generally speaking pretty simple ones. I could link to a few, but generally speaking they're just asking for depictions of minority cultures not to be an afterthought.

As long as slavery is depicted as bad I don't have issues with it being depicted.

This is a conversation I'm not in the mood for, so I will agree that slavery should be depicted as bad, but ultimately you shouldn't depict it unless you are really ready to deal with it and not just use it as an adventure hook.

The Efreet as well are evil in Arab myth, and are known to keep slaves there.

Okay, and there are a lot of racist tropes wrapped up in the same sort of image. I'm not sure how I can explain this further.
 

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