D&D 5E (2014) Psionics in a sci-fi D&D

[Hussar]

But again, why is a “good psionic system” different from a magic system?

 

[Minigiant]

However, @Minigiant, none of that explains why I need an entirely new casting system in order to have a psion.

After all, a Psion "spell" (power, manifestation, whatever) can be written exactly as a spell, including level so that Energy Burst is simply a psionic "spell" at 3rd level. Or, we simply have a sorcerer (or whatever - I'm open to suggestions) chassis with meta-magic powers that let you do energy substitution. In other words, I don't need a new system in order to incorporate a 40 foot radius blast of energy done at range.

So, while I agree that psions should have different effects from other casters - after all, all the casters have different palette's of effects - that's not a reason why I need an entirely new system in order to bring those effects into the game.

Oh my reason for why psions should be a new system is personal preference of the outcome, the brokenness of the 5e spell list, and the lack of discipline of WOTC.

I'd trust Morrus to make a spell based psion.

I do not trust WOTC to not give Mass Dominate, Energy Ball and Hypercognition to Psions... and Wizards.

 

[Mordhau]

But again, why is a “good psionic system” different from a magic system?

Different in what way?

Different in mechanical structure or different in effects?

 

[tetrasodium]

Different in what way?

Different in mechanical structure or different in effects?

I believe that is exactly the question. back in early editions there were mechanical aspects of the magic system that it approached differently but in 5e those aspects are mostly removed or extremely vestigial making them a thing that can't be subverted to generate differences.

 

[Hussar]

Oh my reason for why psions should be a new system is personal preference of the outcome, the brokenness of the 5e spell list, and the lack of discipline of WOTC.

I'd trust Morrus to make a spell based psion.

I do not trust WOTC to not give Mass Dominate, Energy Ball and Hypercognition to Psions... and Wizards.

Yeah, I have to admit, I really, really don't have the bugaboo about caster power that you have. I just haven't seen it in the game. I mean, heck, I have a current game of 5 casters - cleric, sorcerer, bard, artificer and warlock. The damage spread and power spread between just the casters is HUGE. And the artificer, probably the least "casty" - she's a battlesmith? The one with the pet - is dead in the middle of all of them.

A non-caster, by 5th level, is averaging about 25 points of damage per round. Sure, the casters will spike from time to time - fireballs being what they are - but, overall? Just not seeing anything approaching "broken".

 

[dave2008]

The reason why wizards delve dungeons is to steal magical info from each other because they can't research magic at a decent pace on their own.
The wizard's treasure is found spellbooks, the gold needed to copy them, and drugs to remember their master's spells.

Because (D&D) magic litterally makes little sense and tons of the info needed for research is missing.

That is clearly one way of looking at it, but definitely not the only way. There is definitely fiction which presents magic very much like a science. Heck, in my 5e game, before our wizard became the most powerful wizard in the world he primarily learned spells through training. Now that there is no one strong enough to train / teach him he literally creates new spells through research and experimentation. The chance of him finding magical scrolls or books that are at his level are extremely rare, so he has to use the "science" of magic to learn powerful spells.

However, I wasn't really talking about wizard magic, I was asking about your concept of psionics. From the available fiction I have not gotten the impression that it is really more understood than your description of magic. I don't get the sense that it is as known and predictable has you insist.

 

[TheSword]

Any psionic system in D&D should follow the conventions of magic. Basic rules and principle, Keep to the spell levels etc.

The reason is simple, doing so allows the huge body of resources on spells to be used and practicable in a system with psionics but no magic per se. Anything that allows easy conversion of existing material is a good thing in my book.

I do also think the idea that Psionics are somehow uniquely special is a bit pointless, when to all outside appearances it does the same stuff. If you want psionicists to feel different then the delivery mechanism / slots per day etc can be different in the same way a warlock is different. Come up with some new disciplines to arrange the spells into psionic categories, kinda like you did with new spell themes in LU.

But fundamentally it’s all just magic. Ego whip is just a spell by any other name. The 3e handbooks made that blatantly clear.

 

[Mordhau]

I think whether magic is a science is a bit of a red herring.

The whole purpose of psionics is to be a more scientific form of magic, and that only makes sense with reference to our science - real science. Of course, that doesn't mean that it is generally scientific or plausible it's about where it draws it's aesthetics from. D&D magic (Like Terry Pratchett's magic in discworld) is often metaphorically science, but that is a different thing.

When I use psionics to agitate the molecules in my arm to change it to grow claws, I'm am referring to a real world understanding of physics to explain what is happening.

When I draw on the 'scientific' principles of magic to enchant a ship that flies in the air on the understanding that a ship can be made to fly more easily than a castle because the ship already floats and therefore the principles of sympathetic magic make it easier to turn it into something which can fly based on the concept of 'as above so below' I am definitely not referencing our real world understanding of physics.

Basically if the underlying assumption is that material objects are built out of atoms and molecules and that space and time are intrinsically the same and gravity is related to the mass of objects then there's a distinct difference than if the world is a disc on the back of four elephants standing atop a giant turtle swimming through a void.

Now if you have D&D magic and psionics in the same setting you do indeed have some kind of clash, but how you explain it?...Well D&D has never really tried to explain it, and the current edition is probably less interested in attempting to provide a model of a coherent world than ever, so you'll probably be on your own there.

 

[Mind of tempest]

A few people here seem to have a different definition of supernatural than the general populace uses. Supernatural is ghosts and demons and vampires and spiritual powers granted by deity-like beings. The main problem is that psychic powers have been represented in some cases as science and in other cases as spiritual. The ki/chi abilities of Eastern beliefs is the spiritual psychic powers, while the ones shown in many forms of media are just simply part of a person from birth or are given to them by scientific experiments. Firestarter by Steven King comes to mind. In comic books terms, this kind of psychic power could be classified as a mutation. And again, mutations are science, not supernatural. So for me, it all comes down to whether you want powers that are mystical or scientific.

And just for fun, here is the TV Tropes page for psychic powers:

Psychic Powers - TV Tropes

The ability to alter (or remotely observe) reality, directly tied to the mind/brain of the character. This is a specific form of Magic by Any Other Name, where the magic is named for some pseudoscientific relationship with the caster's mental …

tvtropes.org

the problem is the mutant fantasy has been more or less eaten by the sorcerer so going for the universalism of the spiritual seem the best bet but that means we would have a whole bunch of new problems to deal with.

 

[Aldarc]

Psionics is just Space Magic by another name. No need for a new system.

I would say that the problem is that even if psionics are "space magic," how 'magic' operates or functions is incredibly broad, particularly within the realm of fantasy itself: e.g., spell books, spells, rituals, material components, incantations, at-will talents, etc.

For example, Blue Rose has psychic arcana as a type of magic that operates like other magic in the setting. However, other magic in the setting involves at-will magic, often requiring Adept characters making rolls against fatigue. Magic does not involve spells cast from spellbooks, using spell slots, or spells per day.

This is one of the chief problems with the discussion about whether or not psionics are "magic." Even if one agrees that psionics are a form of magic or magic by another name, one does not necessarily agree that psionics should use the spell level/slot system or that one should use wizards and sorcerers instead. But that is often what happens in these discussions: i.e., a LOT of bad faith bait-and-switching.

To me, "Star Wars" force abilities don't frame very well as psionic abilities. They do have power crystals (in light sabers, and in certain powerful weapons), and The Emperor uses technology to boost his abilities. (I'm discounting most of the new abilities in the last trilogy. I can't fit them into my prior conception of the force.) But the Emperor seems to use technology more to facilitate his force use than to actually generate force effects. To me, the force just doesn't feel psionic.

There seems to be more overlap between the Force and D&D psionics than with the Force and D&D magic (on the whole). The Force is in many respects like Ki, but Ki and Psionics have been linked before in D&D (e.g., 4e D&D). But the Force does involve meditation, telepathy and empathy, telekinesis, mind-over-matter bodily enhancement, heightened reflexes, intuition, lightning powers, precognitive visions, psychometry, mysticism, etc. which are common powers, including in terms of flavor text with D&D psionics. It's hard to imagine that D&D psionics weren't likely influenced by the Force, Jedi, and Sith from Star Wars.

Psionics sort of suffers in that it has migrated from something that may have seemed somewhat plausible as something that might exist at some point in the future if you squint your eye and don't study the science to closely.

If people have some small degree of psychic ability, which was actually something being seriously studied at one point, then it would make sense that genetic manipulation or eugenics might one day enhance this ability.

I don't think people take this seriously any more. It's sort of slipped now into the same realm of magic in most people's imagination. However, it's still viewed differently to how magic is usually viewed, because it's origins in a form of pseuo-scientific thinking inform it's use in genre.

As I said earlier, think about whether psionic powers should be able to animate zombies and have them walk about of their own volition. Necromancy assumes that death is a kind of energy of it's own that can manipulate things. Psionics (generally) assumes that the laws of phyiscs roughly apply (except where they can be broken in the expectation the average person won't notice)* and that you can't use mysterious metaphyical forces like the power of death.

There's also degrees of proximity. Once you have a hard science fiction in space in which people have a limited form of psychic ability, the the more pulp arm of the genre which take that and stretch it past the limit of plausibility, because you are allowed to do that with the pulpy arm of the genre. It's the more fantastical element but it exists in a kind of dialogue with the more serious.

Psionics, IMHO, represent - much like 19th century Spiritualism - a reaction to the scientific materialism, reason, and empiricism of Post-Enlightenment worldview. It represents a desire for a continued place of the magical, otherworldly, miraculous, and paranormal elements that were previously a part of (predominately) Euro-American worldviews.

Considering how many people still treat wizards as the scientists and academics in a world of magical fantasy, I'm not surprised (in retrospect) of the continued desire for psionics.

the problem is the mutant fantasy has been more or less eaten by the sorcerer so going for the universalism of the spiritual seem the best bet but that means we would have a whole bunch of new problems to deal with.

I think that there would have been far less of an issue had D&D 5e gone the PF2 route and came up with four universal spell lists: i.e., Arcane, Divine, Occult/Psionic, and Primal. So if you want your mutant fantasy that you were born with psionic powers, pick the Occult spell list. Is your in-born gift that you were born with powers of nature and the wild? Pick the Primal spell list. That would have also been a great way to provide a place for psionics at the start.