D&D 5E Psionics in a sci-fi D&D

[Mind of tempest]

I would say that the problem is that even if psionics are "space magic," how 'magic' operates or functions is incredibly broad, particularly within the realm of fantasy itself: e.g., spell books, spells, rituals, material components, incantations, at-will talents, etc.

For example, Blue Rose has psychic arcana as a type of magic that operates like other magic in the setting. However, other magic in the setting involves at-will magic, often requiring Adept characters making rolls against fatigue. Magic does not involve spells cast from spellbooks, using spell slots, or spells per day.

This is one of the chief problems with the discussion about whether or not psionics are "magic." Even if one agrees that psionics are a form of magic or magic by another name, one does not necessarily agree that psionics should use the spell level/slot system or that one should use wizards and sorcerers instead. But that is often what happens in these discussions: i.e., a LOT of bad faith bait-and-switching.


There seems to be more overlap between the Force and D&D psionics than with the Force and D&D magic (on the whole). The Force is in many respects like Ki, but Ki and Psionics have been linked before in D&D (e.g., 4e D&D). But the Force does involve meditation, telepathy and empathy, telekinesis, mind-over-matter bodily enhancement, heightened reflexes, intuition, lightning powers, precognitive visions, psychometry, mysticism, etc. which are common powers, including in terms of flavor text with D&D psionics. It's hard to imagine that D&D psionics weren't likely influenced by the Force, Jedi, and Sith from Star Wars.


Psionics, IMHO, represent - much like 19th century Spiritualism - a reaction to the scientific materialism, reason, and empiricism of Post-Enlightenment worldview. It represents a desire for a continued place of the magical, otherworldly, miraculous, and paranormal elements that were previously a part of (predominately) Euro-American worldviews.

Considering how many people still treat wizards as the scientists and academics in a world of magical fantasy, I'm not surprised (in retrospect) of the continued desire for psionics.


I think that there would have been far less of an issue had D&D 5e gone the PF2 route and came up with four universal spell lists: i.e., Arcane, Divine, Occult/Psionic, and Primal. So if you want your mutant fantasy that you were born with psionic powers, pick the Occult spell list. Is your in-born gift that you were born with powers of nature and the wild? Pick the Primal spell list. That would have also been a great way to provide a place for psionics at the start.

you certainly are well reserched.

what would the non-mutant psion look like then in this hypothetical?

 

[Minigiant]

Yeah, I have to admit, I really, really don't have the bugaboo about caster power that you have. I just haven't seen it in the game. I mean, heck, I have a current game of 5 casters - cleric, sorcerer, bard, artificer and warlock. The damage spread and power spread between just the casters is HUGE. And the artificer, probably the least "casty" - she's a battlesmith? The one with the pet - is dead in the middle of all of them.

A non-caster, by 5th level, is averaging about 25 points of damage per round. Sure, the casters will spike from time to time - fireballs being what they are - but, overall? Just not seeing anything approaching "broken".

I don't mean broken in that sense.

I mean I think

The Telepath's Far Hand should be stronger than a Wizard's Mage hand
The Electrokineticist's Force Lighting should be stronger than a Wizard's Lightning Bolt
The Psychometrist's Read Object should be stronger than a Wizard's Identify

Because the psionic character has more access, more knowledge, and can be more more dexterous with their power. Because it work on its own internal and stable logic. And much like characters from SciFi and comic, the limitations is based on their own power and control mush like one's hands and feet.

But if D&D 5e just treats them all like spells, it would put them in the same limitations as spells and/or hand them out to classes willy nilly. Removing all the nuances of science fiction.

 

[Aldarc]

you certainly are well reserched.

what would the non-mutant psion look like then in this hypothetical?

Potentially as a "Mystic," though not necessarily in the style of the 5e playtest class of the same name.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

I think whether magic is a science is a bit of a red herring.

The whole purpose of psionics is to be a more scientific form of magic, and that only makes sense with reference to our science - real science. Of course, that doesn't mean that it is generally scientific or plausible it's about where it draws it's aesthetics from. D&D magic (Like Terry Pratchett's magic in discworld) is often metaphorically science, but that is a different thing.

When I use psionics to agitate the molecules in my arm to change it to grow claws, I'm am referring to a real world understanding of physics to explain what is happening.

This sounds like one way to describe how 'Alter Self' spell works.

When I draw on the 'scientific' principles of magic to enchant a ship that flies in the air on the understanding that a ship can be made to fly more easily than a castle because the ship already floats and therefore the principles of sympathetic magic make it easier to turn it into something which can fly based on the concept of 'as above so below' I am definitely not referencing our real world understanding of physics.

But if it actually works, it is 'physics' of that world.

Basically if the underlying assumption is that material objects are built out of atoms and molecules and that space and time are intrinsically the same and gravity is related to the mass of objects then there's a distinct difference than if the world is a disc on the back of four elephants standing atop a giant turtle swimming through a void.

Right. It can't be both. So trying to have both in the same setting is incoherent.

Now if you have D&D magic and psionics in the same setting you do indeed have some kind of clash, but how you explain it?...Well D&D has never really tried to explain it, and the current edition is probably less interested in attempting to provide a model of a coherent world than ever, so you'll probably be on your own there.

Unsatisfactory.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Psionics, IMHO, represent - much like 19th century Spiritualism - a reaction to the scientific materialism, reason, and empiricism of Post-Enlightenment worldview. It represents a desire for a continued place of the magical, otherworldly, miraculous, and paranormal elements that were previously a part of (predominately) Euro-American worldviews.

Right. It is just using other words for magic, when talking about magic became too embarrassing.

 

[Aldarc]

Right. It is just using other words for magic, when talking about magic became too embarrassing.

Pretty much, though I wouldn't use language quite that heavily loaded.

However, again the danger here is performing a bait-and-switch that if "psionics = magic" that therefore D&D's magic system (with or without alteration) or pre-existing classes suffice for psionics. We may say, for example, that psionics is basically "space magic" while also acknowledging, for example, that the thematic range of psionics and associated archetypes are more limited or specific than it is with D&D's Wizard, Sorcerer, or Cleric.

Regardless of anyone's opinions on these matters, I think it's important to treat these as the discreet arguments that they are. In terms of argumentative coherence, it's one thing to say that conceptually psionics represents a post-scientific materialist attempt to preserve the supernatural, but it's another to therefore argue that the game mechanics of psionics should use the pre-existing magic system for a tabletop RPG, including all its various bells and whistles.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Pretty much, though I wouldn't use language quite that heavily loaded.

However, again the danger here is performing a bait-and-switch that if "psionics = magic" that therefore D&D's magic system (with or without alteration) or pre-existing classes suffice for psionics. We may say, for example, that psionics is basically "space magic" while also acknowledging, for example, that the thematic range of psionics and associated archetypes are more limited or specific than it is with D&D's Wizard, Sorcerer, or Cleric.

Sure. But the same would apply to to any differently flavoured magic. D&D magic is super broad and powerful, and it really isn't suitable to represent how magic works in a lot of fiction. But different flavour can be achieved via spell lists and class design, without designing a completely separate parallel system from ground up.

Regardless of anyone's opinions on these matters, I think it's important to treat these as the discreet arguments that they are. In terms of argumentative coherence, it's one thing to say that conceptually psionics represents a post-scientific materialist attempt to preserve the supernatural, but it's another to therefore argue that the game mechanics of psionics should use the pre-existing magic system for a tabletop RPG, including all its various bells and whistles.

Well, purpose of mechanics is to represent a fictional concept. So in order to decide what the mechanics should do, we first need to define what the concept actually is.

 

[Cadence]

The Telepath's Far Hand should be stronger than a Wizard's Mage hand
The Electrokineticist's Force Lighting should be stronger than a Wizard's Lightning Bolt
The Psychometrist's Read Object should be stronger than a Wizard's Identify

Because the psionic character has more access, more knowledge, and can be more more dexterous with their power. Because it work on its own internal and stable logic. And much like characters from SciFi and comic, the limitations is based on their own power and control mush like one's hands and feet.

This is one of my pet peeves in DnD. It feels like the person who should have the most powerful lightning is the cleric of the deity of lightning .. because they're getting their powers by going straight to the freaking deity of it, and not limited by their own mental capacity. And the cleric of the deity of knowledge feels like they should be the best at knowing things for the same reason. (I kind of have trouble picturing who the Deity of Telekinesis is).

Also, I eagerly await the alt-future debates about if you want to hire a psi-scientist or a psi-engineer or a psioniscist to get the job done, and how all the institutions teaching it fight over what to call their departments and courses.

 

[Grendel_Khan]

And yet we've had threads on this very forum discussing how to expand martial capabilities with many suggestions that go beyond using the AC system. I'm not sure you should be so quick to make claims as to what "no one" wants.

I've definitely seen what you're talking about, and it always conjures the same 800-lb gorilla into the room: There are games other than D&D out there. So many of them..

 

[Mind of tempest]

I've definitely seen what you're talking about, and it always conjures the same 800-lb gorilla into the room: There are games other than D&D out there. So many of them..

true but this is not a conversation about those games we want dnd to do something thus we talk about how best to do it.