D&D 5E Levels 1-4 are "Training Wheels?"

[Minigiant]

Venomfang is slayed on a regular basis by pregen level 4 characters. No powergaming here when your theory don't match the facts, change the theory not the facts
And by the way White & Black dragons are weaker than Green dragons : if Venomfang is killable, Cryovain is even more so.

I dunno. Venomfang TPK is very common. It's about 75% TPK rate if a full fight happen when I run it.

 

[Retreater]

Uh...what? Care to explain that one?

Regarding being unstoppable after 5th level, I think it's a combination of many character classes getting healing spells, healing word as a bonus action, revifify, etc.
I think monster damage is also very low compared to character hp and AC. I have characters regularly walk away from a combat unscathed.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

The adventures are different, but it just means that low level PCs can't rely on spells or abilities to solve problems. They have to rely on wits and planning, and knowing when to run. Even though my campaigns typically go to 20, I personally find low levels more fun and meaningful.

My pessimism about low levels would probably be significantly ameliorated if what I'd been through were even remotely like this. I've repeatedly had DMs throw stupidly dangerous fights at low-level characters and not understand how things could go so pear-shaped when their other groups do just fine. IIRC, one group we had to fight a mummy as our second encounter at 1st level, with zero warning or opportunity to find out that we'd be doing so until the mummy got the drop on us; then as soon as we got completely DM-fiat saved from a TPK, we went out on our first mission, got our asses handed to us by a fight so we decided to take a short rest to heal....and then got ambushed by a second viciously hard encounter and only one character escaped alive, at which point the campaign folded.

Other groups have suffered similar ignominious ends, not always at the hands of stupidly-powerful enemies. (The aforementioned "wow, that fight hurt, we need to rest" combat was against a handful of giant spiders and...some other thing I don't recall, for example.) Even groups that didn't disintegrate so rapidly generally have had pretty clear "alright, guess I have to use kid gloves" moments.

Given I get neither interesting mechanical interactions nor meaningfully enjoyable story out of such experiences, yeah, I basically have zero reason to engage with them. They provide no thrilling action IME, and rarely (if ever) require much more than "expend mundane resources" or "read the DM's mind as to whether you should be diplomatic this time or a treacherous snake." Probably doesn't help that most of the "challenges" allegedly faced by low-level characters either feel trivial/perfunctory, moon-logic, or ridiculously punishing (As examples of that last one: "you made one mistake, now take 4d8 damage as a 1st-level character" or "ooh, shouldn't have gotten touched by a mummy you didn't know was there, now you have mummy rot and will die in 1d4 days unless you get a spell you can't afford and no one in the party can cast.")

Also, as for the "don't piss off the bandits": Alright. That sounds really dull to me, because "set traps for your enemies" and "sneak around and maybe get intel so other people can actually fix the problem" mean...doing precious little yourself. Particularly the former, since that doubles up with "do immoral things to succeed." Just feels like it's emphasizing how petty and pointless one's life is when the best the character can hope for is "maybe learn something, so I can tell the actually important people in the hope they'll fix it."

 

[Islayre d'Argolh]

I dunno. Venomfang TPK is very common. It's about 75% TPK rate if a full fight happen when I run it.

Again, your initial quote was :

Techinically it's true.

The game is called Dungeons and Dragons.

You have no chance to escape a young dragon encounter until at least level 5.
Until you can deal with a real dragon, you aren't really playing the game.

Of course Venomfang TPK is common, but it can be slayed by level 4 characters, it's a plain fact.
And from my point of view, saying that Venomfang is a very risky fight feels just right : fighting a dragon should always be very risky.

And just for the record, take a look at this article from DM Dave.

 

[Blue]

I'd push level 3, not level 5, as where veteran players get whole characters.

But levels 1-2 are anything but training wheels - they are the most deadly levels up through and including 20. The number of HPs are so low that normal swinginess and some bad luck can kill characters, sometimes insta-death with something like a crit. No other levels can a battle that has been reasonable turn to actual-deadly (not buffer-feels-deadly) so quick.

That said, unless the players have a very strong opinion I start my campaigns at 1st, and then just advance rapidly to 3rd. This way (a) players of all levels are quite familiar with their characters, (b) they have time to test drive before picking important options, and (c) they have a feel for the party synergy before making those same decisions.

 

[Oofta]

My pessimism about low levels would probably be significantly ameliorated if what I'd been through were even remotely like this. I've repeatedly had DMs throw stupidly dangerous fights at low-level characters and not understand how things could go so pear-shaped when their other groups do just fine. IIRC, one group we had to fight a mummy as our second encounter at 1st level, with zero warning or opportunity to find out that we'd be doing so until the mummy got the drop on us; then as soon as we got completely DM-fiat saved from a TPK, we went out on our first mission, got our asses handed to us by a fight so we decided to take a short rest to heal....and then got ambushed by a second viciously hard encounter and only one character escaped alive, at which point the campaign folded.

Other groups have suffered similar ignominious ends, not always at the hands of stupidly-powerful enemies. (The aforementioned "wow, that fight hurt, we need to rest" combat was against a handful of giant spiders and...some other thing I don't recall, for example.) Even groups that didn't disintegrate so rapidly generally have had pretty clear "alright, guess I have to use kid gloves" moments.

Given I get neither interesting mechanical interactions nor meaningfully enjoyable story out of such experiences, yeah, I basically have zero reason to engage with them. They provide no thrilling action IME, and rarely (if ever) require much more than "expend mundane resources" or "read the DM's mind as to whether you should be diplomatic this time or a treacherous snake." Probably doesn't help that most of the "challenges" allegedly faced by low-level characters either feel trivial/perfunctory, moon-logic, or ridiculously punishing (As examples of that last one: "you made one mistake, now take 4d8 damage as a 1st-level character" or "ooh, shouldn't have gotten touched by a mummy you didn't know was there, now you have mummy rot and will die in 1d4 days unless you get a spell you can't afford and no one in the party can cast.")

Also, as for the "don't piss off the bandits": Alright. That sounds really dull to me, because "set traps for your enemies" and "sneak around and maybe get intel so other people can actually fix the problem" mean...doing precious little yourself. Particularly the former, since that doubles up with "do immoral things to succeed." Just feels like it's emphasizing how petty and pointless one's life is when the best the character can hope for is "maybe learn something, so I can tell the actually important people in the hope they'll fix it."

I'm sorry you've had such poor experiences, but it's still not a problem with the system. Only time I had an issue was when the DM had never run 5E before but had run a lot of 4E where you start out with a ton more resiliency. I've had fun at all levels of the game, including starting at level 0. Then again, even at level 20 there are threats the PCs should not try to take head on in my campaigns.

But if it's not for you, it's not.

 

[Monayuris]

The thing is some people want low level to start as weaker and others want to start as heroic from the beginning.

In a game where low levels start weaker, those who want heroic game play have a recourse - they can start the game at a higher level. In a game where low levels start out heroic, those who want weaker characters have no recourse - they need to play a different game.

 

[payn]

Folks, heroics are not tied to power. Level 1 characters can be heroic. Even OSR ones.

 

[Retreater]

Folks, heroics are not tied to power. Level 1 characters can be heroic. Even OSR ones.

For sure. But I think some players (like the one in my example) enjoy a bigger, more epic experience sometimes (i.e. wrestling a Titan and staking him to the side of a mountain, fighting a warlock mounted on the back of a black dragon flying over a swamp of acid, etc).
Low level D&D tends to be kobolds, goblins, bandits, and weak undead. It's understandable to be tired of that if it's all you've played for 5 years.

 

[Panzeh]

Folks, heroics are not tied to power. Level 1 characters can be heroic. Even OSR ones.

Sure, though the kind of heroism a level 1 character can engage in in D&D is something akin to running out of a landing craft under machine gun fire rather than actually accomplishing much. It's fine, but I find in games where characters matter more, just getting whacked by the roll of the dice for not being a coward isn't anyone's idea of a good time.