WotC Can we salvage Toril?

[Maxperson]

I’ve got twenty or so 3e books, covering large swathes of the realms and another thirty or so 2nd Ed books covering the rest. I’m not sure why on earth I would need 5e to reprint it all over again.

There is more Forgotten Realms (including Maztica, Al Quadim, and Kara Tur) for any 10 settings. What is there that needs salvaging???

1. New players don't necessarily have access to those books.
2. When new editions happen, time advances and the changes should be printed for more than 1/225th of the world.

 

[TheSword]

1. New players don't necessarily have access to those books.

They have a damn site more access to it than I did back in 1995. I used to have to get a bus to the city, walk about 5 miles to and from the bus-stop/game store. Hope they had what I wanted in stock, or wait two-three weeks for an order, and then pay the equivalent of £25 for a printed copy.

New players click here… and get a book for 1/3 of the 1995 equivalent I paid for it, instantly and in a portable, easy to read, nigh invulnerable version.

DriveThruRPG.com

Your one-stop online shop for new and vintage RPG products from the top publishers, delivered fresh to your desktop in electronic format.

www.drivethrurpg.com

2. When new editions happen, time advances and the changes should be printed for more than 1/225th of the world.

This is a totally unrealistic expectation. Far beyond anyone to keep going with. You can’t simultaneously expand the Realms year after year and then simultaneously expect that detail to be refreshed and renewed over and over again. As the realms gets bigger and bigger. No setting does that, or has ever done that. All you can hope for is for key areas to get a refresh.

I also kind of refute the idea that the sword coast is in isolation. The Sumber Hills in Princes of the Apocalypse could easily be transplanted into Damara, or the Dales, or Tethyr with a minimum of fuss.

The old adage of “only write as much as you need to tell the story” comes in to play at some point.

 

[haakon1]

It would be unfortunate if the rest of Toril was ignored IMO.

I know some people find Kara-Tur in "bad form" or whatever, but frankly I really liked it in AD&D. I think WotC could do something with it, but odds are someone would take offense--so they probably won't.

I liked (my first DMing) AD&D Oriental Adventures, which is 1986 came with text descriptions of the lands and no map. It was not set in FR originally - meant for Greyhaw, supposedly - and I ran it as its own place.

It’s the word “oriental” that’s a problem (much less 36 years ago), rather than the content of the game, which was very fun for people who grew up watching Hong Kong kung fu movies on TV (super popular on NYC‘s channel 5 in 1970’s to 1980’s, because we had more channls to fill than the rest of the US) and the rare, rare treat of something from Kurosawa, like 7 Samurai or Ran.

 

[DND_Reborn]

It’s the word “oriental” that’s a problem (much less 36 years ago), rather than the content of the game

Really? IME more people complain about the treatment of the cultures, classes, etc. even though TSR had people who were there to help with that sort of thing.

 

[Maxperson]

They have a damn site more access to it than I did back in 1995. I used to have to get a bus to the city, walk about 5 miles to and from the bus-stop/game store. Hope they had what I wanted in stock, or wait two-three weeks for an order, and then pay the equivalent of £25 for a printed copy.

New players click here… and get a book for 1/3 of the 1995 equivalent I paid for it, instantly and in a portable, easy to read, nigh invulnerable version.

A ton of folks, like myself, don't run games with PDFs. We take actual books with us to leaf through.

This is a totally unrealistic expectation. Far beyond anyone to keep going with. You can’t simultaneously expand the Realms year after year and then simultaneously expect that detail to be refreshed and renewed over and over again. As the realms gets bigger and bigger. No setting does that, or has ever done that. All you can hope for is for key areas to get a refresh.

There has been no expansion "year after year." There has been only one expansive work given, and it details a minute section of the Realms. the Sword Coast. Just one small piece in almost 10 years.

I also kind of refute the idea that the sword coast is in isolation. The Sumber Hills in Princes of the Apocalypse could easily be transplanted into Damara, or the Dales, or Tethyr with a minimum of fuss.

That doesn't refute anything. So you have a few hills. Kinda need the updated Damara, Dales or Tethyr to use it. Otherwise all you have are a few hills.

The old adage of “only write as much as you need to tell the story” comes in to play at some point.

And then there's the old adage, "It's nice to have lots of information available to read and be inspired by."

 

[Scars Unseen]

This is a totally unrealistic expectation. Far beyond anyone to keep going with. You can’t simultaneously expand the Realms year after year and then simultaneously expect that detail to be refreshed and renewed over and over again. As the realms gets bigger and bigger. No setting does that, or has ever done that. All you can hope for is for key areas to get a refresh.

That's not entirely true. Legend of the Five Rings did with considerably less resources than WotC could leverage if they so chose. Granted, a lot of the advancement was kind of wonky because it partially hinged on the results of a card game tournament, but they did it, and it wouldn't be that hard to do with the Realms if WotC was actually willing to support the setting. Here's how I would approach it:

1. Focus on the macro scale in a FR dedicated website (with history for past changes), and let the micro filter in through products and novels. Basically, let readers know what's happening overall with nations and major city-states. Anything on a smaller scale can be considered to be business as usual unless another product touches it.
2. Dial it down a notch. Conflicts between major groups, power plays within groups, wars, etc. keep the setting feeling alive. Events that reshape the fabric of reality, destroy, remove, reshape or insert landmasses, kill gods, etc. make the setting unstable and less playable. Think realm shaking event in the singular, not the whole frickin planet.
3. Make your plans a combination of long term plans that can be updated over multiple years and isolated events that are fully contained within one. Some can be in reaction to novels and products, but some should be fully original so the DM can design their own adventures around them if they choose.
4. In addition to factual events, consider a "what people are talking about" section so you can mix in foreshadowing of future events and random gossip that may or may not be true(e.g. DM fodder).

You could probably do this in a pretty satisfactory way with just a few people working on it as their regular job to do a combination of research, writing and coordination with authors and product designers. And it's not like WotC is hard up for money these days.

 

[TheSword]

A ton of folks, like myself, don't run games with PDFs. We take actual books with us to leaf through.

There has been no expansion "year after year." There has been only one expansive work given, and it details a minute section of the Realms. the Sword Coast. Just one small piece in almost 10 years.

That doesn't refute anything. So you have a few hills. Kinda need the updated Damara, Dales or Tethyr to use it. Otherwise all you have are a few hills.

And then there's the old adage, "It's nice to have lots of information available to read and be inspired by."

Yes but you aren’t a new player, so the fact that you like weighty tomes rather than designing a campaign off your iPad says more about old players (sorry) than new players.

The sword coast isn’t a tiny area, it’s a thousand miles of coastline, and includes half a dozen cities, upteen towns. Several big dungeons and about 10,000 NPCs.

My point isn’t that the hills are of particularly interest themselves. Just that Feathergale Tower, an analogue of Red Larch, or the ancient dwarf city below the hills can be based in Dagger Dale as easily as anywhere else. As can the analogue of Phandelver or Waterdeep.

The Forgotten Realm obsession with codifying and cataloguing lore borders on data-porn. Who cares if Berun Ghastkill was mayor of Bereghost in DR 2547 or not. If you need a mayor of that town use him… or any town for that matter. Just write it down somewhere.

 

[TheSword]

That's not entirely true. Legend of the Five Rings did with considerably less resources than WotC could leverage if they so chose. Granted, a lot of the advancement was kind of wonky because it partially hinged on the results of a card game tournament, but they did it, and it wouldn't be that hard to do with the Realms if WotC was actually willing to support the setting. Here's how I would approach it:

1. Focus on the macro scale in a FR dedicated website (with history for past changes), and let the micro filter in through products and novels. Basically, let readers know what's happening overall with nations and major city-states. Anything on a smaller scale can be considered to be business as usual unless another product touches it.
2. Dial it down a notch. Conflicts between major groups, power plays within groups, wars, etc. keep the setting feeling alive. Events that reshape the fabric of reality, destroy, remove, reshape or insert landmasses, kill gods, etc. make the setting unstable and less playable. Think realm shaking event in the singular, not the whole frickin planet.
3. Make your plans a combination of long term plans that can be updated over multiple years and isolated events that are fully contained within one. Some can be in reaction to novels and products, but some should be fully original so the DM can design their own adventures around them if they choose.
4. In addition to factual events, consider a "what people are talking about" section so you can mix in foreshadowing of future events and random gossip that may or may not be true(e.g. DM fodder).

You could probably do this in a pretty satisfactory way with just a few people working on it as their regular job to do a combination of research, writing and coordination with authors and product designers. And it's not like WotC is hard up for money these days.

Rokugan is much much smaller and much more unified than the Forgotten Realms. Rokugan is about as well detailed as… well… the Sword Coast coincidentally. In fact it has a lot less detail in many ways.

Rokugan - one empire, seven or so clans, a couple of dozen locations etc. is much easier to keep updated.

 

[Maxperson]

Yes but you aren’t a new player, so the fact that you like weighty tomes rather than designing a campaign off your iPad says more about old players (sorry) than new players.

It's for old and new players alike. New players need it far more than I do, yes, but I don't have any 5e updated information on literally 99% of the Realms.

I'm not asking for(though it would be nice) a bunch of books like the Unapproachable East and Shining South. A, updated campaign book like the one 3e made that talks about all the areas would be sufficient.

The sword coast isn’t a tiny area, it’s a thousand miles of coastline, and includes half a dozen cities, upteen towns. Several big dungeons and about 10,000 NPCs.

It's a tiny sliver of the Realms(not including Zakhara and Maztica).

My point isn’t that the hills are of particularly interest themselves. Just that Feathergale Tower, an analogue of Red Larch, or the ancient dwarf city below the hills can be based in Dagger Dale as easily as anywhere else. As can the analogue of Phandelver or Waterdeep.

Great. I don't keep my players penned up, though, so I need to know about the rest of the Dales, Sembia, Thay, etc. Those hills are far from sufficient for a campaign that doesn't keep PCs confined to a small area.

The Forgotten Realm obsession with codifying and cataloguing lore borders on data-porn. Who cares if Berun Ghastkill was mayor of Bereghost in DR 2547 or not. If you need a mayor of that town use him… or any town for that matter. Just write it down somewhere.

I'm not talking about a name.

 

[TheSword]

It's for old and new players alike. New players need it far more than I do, yes, but I don't have any 5e updated information on literally 99% of the Realms.

I'm not asking for(though it would be nice) a bunch of books like the Unapproachable East and Shining South. A, updated campaign book like the one 3e made that talks about all the areas would be sufficient.

It's a tiny sliver of the Realms(not including Zakhara and Maztica).

Great. I don't keep my players penned up, though, so I need to know about the rest of the Dales, Sembia, Thay, etc. Those hills are far from sufficient for a campaign that doesn't keep PCs confined to a small area.

I'm not talking about a name.

So what would be in this updated realms other than new NPC names? That doesn’t already exist in a printed product?

To be clear, I love the 3e forgotten realms line and owned every one of them at some point or other. Just not sure it needs reprinting again.