D&D 5E How do you DM Mage Hand Legerdemain and oil/acid/holy water

[billd91]

As an example, one of my DMs let me use my Mage Hand Legerdemain to dump an entire waterskin full of holy water on to a vampire (equivalent to 4 vials). She had me do an intelligence (slight of hand) check contested by his dexterity (acrobatics). I succeeded and did 8d6 radiant. If I remember correctly I had Hex running against the Vampire at the time and he had disadvantage on the acrobatics check.

Yeah, I get it. The trickster can use it to do some pretty fine manipulation, but can’t use it to dump something out on someone according to the rules. That’s some dissonance in the concept of the spell and it’s uses.

But the reason it’s there is to avoid the kind of shenanigans your DM allowed you to get away with. You know any other cantrips doing that kind of damage on a bonus action?

 

[overgeeked]

Yeah, I get it. The trickster can use it to do some pretty fine manipulation, but can’t use it to dump something out on someone according to the rules. That’s some dissonance in the concept of the spell and it’s uses.

That's kind of what I was trying to get at earlier. There's a disconnect between what mage hand can do in the fiction, what is should be able to do mechanically as a result of what it can do in the fiction, and what its actual mechanics are. It's not quite a disassociated mechanic, but it straddles the line. In-fiction it can pour out a vial...mechanically it can pour out a vial...in-fiction it should be able to pour out a vial onto someone because physics (if there's enough liquid and you pour it out above someone, they will get hit with some of it)...but mechanically it cannot pour out a vial onto someone because game balance. I'm not arguing against the game balance. Or arguing against what the RAW clearly states. Rather my issue is the disconnect between in-fiction description, physics, and the game mechanics. You can lift up to 10 lbs and pour out containers...but mage hand also becomes magically clumsy the moment someone happens to be under the container you pour out. It's goofy.

 

[Weiley31]

I mean, I allowed a Warlock PC to use Mage Hand to slap a Bandit's horse, in the face, to cause the pursuing carriage to spiral outta control because the Horse wasn't having any of that bs strangeness.

And Kobold Press is gonna allow it in a Sorcerer Subclass to fire a bunch of handguns with multiple Mage Hands.


So uh, put me down for +1 to rule of cool.

 

[Weiley31]

because the spell is a cantrip - its power is supposed to be limited. Having limits on cantrips is not dumb.

Warlock Eldritch Blast says:

 

[ECMO3]

...but mechanically it cannot pour out a vial onto someone because game balance. I'm not arguing against the game balance.

I don't really think game balance is an issue. oil is 5 damage, after it is lit with something else using another action or bonus action (unless already on fire). Acid and holy water are 7 damage average. The cost for this is high too. You are giving up dashing, disengaging, hiding or getting advantage on your main attack to do this.

If you do it with someone other than a Rogue and need an action the cost is even higher.

I think the intent for balance reasons is you can't take the attack action, because that would make it unbalancing.

 

[Irlo]

I don't really think game balance is an issue. oil is 5 damage, after it is lit with something else using another action or bonus action (unless already on fire). Acid and holy water are 7 damage average. The cost for this is high too. You are giving up dashing, disengaging, hiding or getting advantage on your main attack to do this.

You must admit the question of balance changes somewhat when you start dumping buckets full of holy water onto vampires, though, right?

 

[ECMO3]

You must admit the question of balance changes somewhat when you start dumping buckets full of holy water onto vampires, though, right?

Yes it is.

I did not expect to be allowed to do that and at the time I don't think I would have allowed it as a DM. But I also was not about to argue it as the player. I think we were around 7th level when this happened. It was not something I planned to do. I filled my waterskin with holy water because we found a pool of holy water, I did not have another container and I needed it as a material component for protection from good and evil.

The whole story:

Our party was trying to escape from the vampire and his minions. Most of the party was near dead, one was actually unconcious and being carried by the Barbarian, although my character had not yet been hit. I started the turn with the vampire hexed, and with him blocking the only way out. I grappled the Vampire (I have expertise in athletics) and then moved him out of the way so the rest of my party could flee. I already had the mage hand out and it already had the waterskin full of holy water. When I won the check I figured I would dump out the equivalent of 1 vial and still have the other 3 but she said roll 8d6. Since the party was almost dead I was not about to argue. It still didn't kill him or even come close though.

The following turn I misty stepped away from him, dropped some caltrops behind me and then moved to catch up to where the rest of the party got with a dash on the previous turn. I had to leave my mage hand and my water skin behind. Since we never again made it to civilization, I spent the entire rest of the campaign bumming water off my allies.

Unfortunately the Vampire and his minions were faster than most of the party. They were not faster than me or the monk, but I had to essentially fight a running battle to slow them down for a couple turns until the Ranger, Sorcerer and Barbarian got way ahead and I could start double dashing.

 

[S'mon]

When I won the check I figured I would dump out the equivalent of 1 vial and still have the other 3 but she said roll 8d6.

I don't think I'd have had it do more than 4d6, the waterskin must be a pretty inefficient applicator compared to individual vials. Switching off regeneration for a round is handy, though. In game on Saturday a PC brought silver arrows to use vs vampires, I ruled they counted as radiant for switching off regen.

 

[theseamonster]

I would argue flatly that if there is a chance of causing any damage (hp loss) then it’s an attack.
Pouring oil per se could not cause damage so I can’t see it as an attack. Holy water on a vampire would be an attack as it would cause hp loss if successful.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

They're not really that ambiguous.

No such thing. But 6 is RAW.

Mage Hand, PHB p256.

"You can use your action to control the hand. You can use the hand to manipulate an object, open an unlocked door or container, stow or retrieve an item from an open container, or pour the contents out of a vial. You can move the hand up to 30 feet each time you use it.

The hand can't attack, activate magic items, or carry more than 10 pounds."

Now read the section on oil, PHB p152.

"As an action, you can splash the oil in this flask onto a creature within 5 feet of you or throw it up to 20 feet, shattering it on impact. Make a ranged attack against a target creature or object, treating the oil as an improvised weapon."

Okay, so what roll are you going to make to pour oil onto a target? An attack roll. What can't you do with mage hand? Make an attack.

"But it clearly states I can 'pour the contents out of a vial'."

Yep. But it also clearly says you can 'manipulate an object'. A sword is an object. So why can't you use mage hand to attack? Because you're specifically not allowed to attack with the mage hand. Specific rules beat general rules. You're generally permitted to manipulate an object, except you specifically cannot use the mage hand to attack. You're generally permitted to pour the contents out of a vial, except you specifically cannot use the mage hand to attack.

This might technically be RAW, though I strongly question your certainty re: "attack", you're building on sand there.

However, it misses the woods for the trees, imho.

The real purpose of the DM is to keep the game moving, keep the game fun, and keep the game reasonably balanced. And the reality is, this just is not a very powerful use of an an action or bonus action. Oil and acid are extremely weak - laughably so, even. Thus ensuring this catch-22 situation where, even though the hand obvious can both tip the oil on to where the person is, and move, it's arbitrarily not allowed to hit them is just a terrible waste of everyone's time and sanity.

No one is claiming you can't. They're just pointing out that you can't dump it rapidly and accurately on someone as an attack, because the spell specifically prohibits making attacks.

Sure, but the catch-22 created here is absolutely idiotic and anti-RP nonsense. It's "bad day in 3E" level of rules > sanity. Obviously the hand should be be allowed to have at least a chance of catching the guy with the oil. It's truly demented that it can't, because a literal accident could. So this overly literalistic reading of 5E is severely problematic to running a game that's actually interesting or fun, and really is just messageboard fodder, frankly.

I'm going to be honest - you're basically arguing in favour of what I would call the really bad kind of DMing where huge effort and little rules clauses are used to lock down really minorly unusual uses of abilities/items, nailing them with laughable technicalities and catch-22s, whilst powerful spells and abilities that clearly state matters, but are OP and broken as hell don't even get blinked at. This forces players down a very specific and extremely boring approach to the game. I doubt that any of you advocating for this catch-22 actually DM like that at the table, though.