D&D 5E A Compilation of all the Race Changes in Monsters of the Multiverse

Over on Reddit, user KingJackel went through the video leak which came out a few days ago and manually compiled a list of all the changes to races in the book. The changes are quite extensive, with only the fairy and harengon remaining unchanged. The book contains 33 races in total, compiled and updated from previous Dungeons & Dragons books...

Over on Reddit, user KingJackel went through the video leak which came out a few days ago and manually compiled a list of all the changes to races in the book. The changes are quite extensive, with only the fairy and harengon remaining unchanged. The book contains 33 races in total, compiled and updated from previous Dungeons & Dragons books.

greg-rutkowski-monsters-of-the-multiverse-1920.jpg



 

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billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
Again combat is pretty abstract and is not meant as a similulation. So if we’re talking about what the stats mean in a sim fashion, you need to tell me what is actually being simulated.

Can succeed on a check 5% more often isn’t much of a simulation.
Yet it is one. You're the one putting too much of an assumption on exactly what needs to be simulated and with what precision/degree. And abstracted and simulated aren't antonyms here - there are simulative aspects even while abstracting to gameable mechanics.
 

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Hussar

Legend
Yet it is one. You're the one putting too much of an assumption on exactly what needs to be simulated and with what precision/degree. And abstracted and simulated aren't antonyms here - there are simulative aspects even while abstracting to gameable mechanics.
Yes, they are opposites. If something is abstract, it's not actually simulating anything. In order to simulate something you actually NEED to have something simulated. Combat is 100% abstract. So, basically, you're simulating an abstract concept - combat, using an abstract measure - Strength (along with things like level and other things as well) and then claiming that it needs to be simulative?

Again, what is a Charisma of 16? What IS it? What is being simulated? How can you tell the difference between a Cha of 14 and a Cha of 16?

How should I play an Intelligence of 14. After all, if the scores are simulations, then there should be a qualitative difference in how I play a 14 Int and a 12 Int. That's just as big of a difference as our Strength scores, and that seems really, really important, so, why isn't Int a major issue?
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
The purpose of rules is to mechanically represent the fictional reality.
The purpose of the rules is to be a game. Whether they are also sufficient for other purposes is a matter of (furious) debate--and sure as hell not an objective "this is the purpose of D&D rules." That's one-true-wayism if I've ever heard it.

We run into contradiction after contradiction if we demand that every rule must represent a physical part of the fictional reality. Some abstraction is always necessary; the map is not the territory.

The difference is the same than with classes having bespoke spell lists and the situation where that is not the case and any class can choose any spell. In the latter situation the payer could still choose what was on the traditional spell list if they wanted, but it wouldn't be quite the same wouldn't it? Ultimately in a splat based game I want the splats to actually mechanically say something about the concepts they represent. if they don't, they serve no purpose. And every 'but this character is individual, so they can be different' equally applies to all racial traits and class features. What if this elf is unique and doesn't see in the dark? What if this wizard has studied healing magic? And literally everything else. If the desire is for every character to be an unique individual not bound by archetypes, (and that's a valid desire) then a splat based game simply is bad starting point. That sort of thing works way better in a game where the characters can actually be freely be built (usually with some sort of point system) by mixing and matching different things.
But spells are creations; things made by people, in-setting. It is completely expected that a plumber should know and understand different tools and techniques from those used by an electrician, even though both are involved in construction. (And the Bard--particularly Lore--has always existed in 5e, offering the opportunity to do exactly what you so pejoratively describe here as an intentional class feature.)

Further, the analogy fails because in-character, ability scores are not elective; they are an innate part of the character. Spells are, and have always been, elective. Some player choices should have a one-to-one mapping to character choices, but others needn't. Certainly, it would seem strange that the player choosing a race should map cleanly onto character choices, since (barring some rather strong sci-fi or magic elements), few characters choose their race. Plus, y'know, the whole "ability scores significantly and permanently affect a character's overall success rate for the rest of its playtime" thing, whereas spells can always be replaced (whether completely, e.g. for Sorcerers, or simply by going out and learning other spells, e.g. for Wizards, or just picking different ones, e.g. for Clerics.)

And those other things seem perfectly fine to me...? There's a baseline for useful traits or physiological features, but even within the first year of 5e's life, we got SCAG offering things like variant half-elf options depending on one's ancestry. And with Tasha's, there's an easy way to represent characters who don't share some of the features of their normal race: the custom lineage. That's literally what it's for, to represent characters that really REALLY don't fit the mold for their race. So...the "you're an X but you share few of their traits" thing would seem to have already arrived, without ruining everything forever.

(And for some reason some people seem to think that ASIs are the only form of ability generation. But of course they're just a small part of it. Most of your ability scores come form roll/point buy, so you still have a huge amount of individual variation.)
I find most of this "huge amount of individual variation" is mostly illusory. Every rogue is going to be at least moderately Dextrous--the incentives are too high, and the investment required to get similar benefits elsewhere is too great: they don't have Medium or Heavy armor proficiency, Sneak Attack requires the use of a weapon with the finesse property anyway, and even Rogue subclasses that like other stats (e.g. Arcane Tricksters) still value Dex. Same goes for most other classes; every Wizard will have at least moderately high Int, every Cleric will have at least moderately high Wis, etc. Indeed, the fact that pretty much all <Class X> want moderate-to-high <Stat Y> is what makes these ability score things an issue.

And yes, I can houserule anything. But everybody can. That's a total Oberoni fallacy.
If I were saying "the game is functional, you just have to house rule it," you would be correct. I am not. The game quite clearly functions whether or not races have ability score modifiers at all. In fact, it functions literally identically either way, because the rules cannot even in principle distinguish between "naturally-rolled 18," "15 point-buy + 2 racial bonus + 1 from half-feat," and "14 from point-buy + 3 ASIs" (or even "14 point-buy + 2 racial bonus + 4 from Barbarian 20.") 20 is 20, whatever sum produced it.

What I am saying is that, with other issues where you already know the rules are abstracted, you have demonstrated great comfort, perhaps even pride, in doing what you like anyway, officialness be damned. If official sanction was not necessary before for other areas where the simulation model fails to conform to your expectations, why is it necessary here, on this issue?
 

But when the range between average (0 bonus) and the absolute most strong is only five gradiations then you have to accept that each “plus” is covering a huge range.
Yes. Thus a strong species being only one gradiation higher still is meaningful.

I find sim arguments ultimately self defeating because it’s all about one person’s view of what is believable. Why are there no cries that dwarves get a str bonus when they shouldn’t.
Look the 3e race comparison picture I posted earlier. The dwarves are broad as a barn door. But sure, one can disagree with specific bonuses each species has, without disagreeing with the underlying concept that different species should have different bonuses. Do you agree with every racial trait that has ever been given to any species? If you think some of them are not great, is that argument for getting rid of traits altogether? Same with class features?

How about elves? How is an elf possibly physically equal to a human when an elf is like half the size?
They aren't. Elves don't get Str bonus. Nor are they half the size of humans.

In other words it’s never about actually simulating anything. It’s about satisfying someone’s personal preference.
It is simulating the fiction. But of course because fiction is vague and how exactly the simulation is conducted is not straightforward, personal preferences will affect it. This is not surprising.
 

The purpose of the rules is to be a game. Whether they are also sufficient for other purposes is a matter of (furious) debate--and sure as hell not an objective "this is the purpose of D&D rules." That's one-true-wayism if I've ever heard it.

We run into contradiction after contradiction if we demand that every rule must represent a physical part of the fictional reality. Some abstraction is always necessary; the map is not the territory.
To me the purpose of the rules is to represent the fictional reality. This doesn't mean they thy must do so in excruciating detail or that things couldn't be abstracted. But the underlying fiction should be the starting point. When I play a RPG I have no interest engaging in a game that is disconnected from the fiction. If I wanted to do that, I could play Tetris while listening an audio novel.

But spells are creations; things made by people, in-setting. It is completely expected that a plumber should know and understand different tools and techniques from those used by an electrician, even though both are involved in construction. (And the Bard--particularly Lore--has always existed in 5e, offering the opportunity to do exactly what you so pejoratively describe here as an intentional class feature.)

Further, the analogy fails because in-character, ability scores are not elective; they are an innate part of the character. Spells are, and have always been, elective. Some player choices should have a one-to-one mapping to character choices, but others needn't. Certainly, it would seem strange that the player choosing a race should map cleanly onto character choices, since (barring some rather strong sci-fi or magic elements), few characters choose their race. Plus, y'know, the whole "ability scores significantly and permanently affect a character's overall success rate for the rest of its playtime" thing, whereas spells can always be replaced (whether completely, e.g. for Sorcerers, or simply by going out and learning other spells, e.g. for Wizards, or just picking different ones, e.g. for Clerics.)
I am really not following you there. I have no idea whether it is a character choice in fiction has to do with anything. It is all player choice in reality. And it is not like people in the setting choose to be porn into sorcerous bloodline either...

And those other things seem perfectly fine to me...? There's a baseline for useful traits or physiological features, but even within the first year of 5e's life, we got SCAG offering things like variant half-elf options depending on one's ancestry. And with Tasha's, there's an easy way to represent characters who don't share some of the features of their normal race: the custom lineage. That's literally what it's for, to represent characters that really REALLY don't fit the mold for their race. So...the "you're an X but you share few of their traits" thing would seem to have already arrived, without ruining everything forever.
So why did they need to change how the races work if adding the custom lineage would have fixed the thing?


I find most of this "huge amount of individual variation" is mostly illusory. Every rogue is going to be at least moderately Dextrous--the incentives are too high, and the investment required to get similar benefits elsewhere is too great: they don't have Medium or Heavy armor proficiency, Sneak Attack requires the use of a weapon with the finesse property anyway, and even Rogue subclasses that like other stats (e.g. Arcane Tricksters) still value Dex. Same goes for most other classes; every Wizard will have at least moderately high Int, every Cleric will have at least moderately high Wis, etc. Indeed, the fact that pretty much all <Class X> want moderate-to-high <Stat Y> is what makes these ability score things an issue.
Sure. Exactly as I said earlier. Class is what dictates most of your ability scores, not the species.

If I were saying "the game is functional, you just have to house rule it," you would be correct. I am not. The game quite clearly functions whether or not races have ability score modifiers at all. In fact, it functions literally identically either way, because the rules cannot even in principle distinguish between "naturally-rolled 18," "15 point-buy + 2 racial bonus + 1 from half-feat," and "14 from point-buy + 3 ASIs" (or even "14 point-buy + 2 racial bonus + 4 from Barbarian 20.") 20 is 20, whatever sum produced it.

What I am saying is that, with other issues where you already know the rules are abstracted, you have demonstrated great comfort, perhaps even pride, in doing what you like anyway, officialness be damned. If official sanction was not necessary before for other areas where the simulation model fails to conform to your expectations, why is it necessary here, on this issue?

I can houserule things, and I don't mind doing a little bit of it. But there is a point where it is just easier to use a different game than even create one from scratch, than trying to fix a game that is going into different direction than you want.

And of course WotC has no obligation to make a game I like, but I also have no obligation to buy their products. And ultimately it is just a question of whether the changes alienate more people than they attract. All I was saying that weakening the connection between the fiction and the rules has historically been a thing that has caused a lot of discontent; that was literally the main complaint about 4e, so I feel this is an area where they should thread carefully.

My thesis is that D&D's appeal is in big part based on being able to play easily recognisable archetypes, and if people start to feel that the mechanics actually do not reflect the archetypes, it will lead to disengagement. At some point people might say "What you mean that my massive half-orc that looks like Hulk is no stronger than a halfling?" or "What you mean that my Legolas clone is no more dextrous than a dwarf?"
 

Reynard

Legend
My thesis is that D&D's appeal is in big part based on being able to play easily recognisable archetypes, and if people start to feel that the mechanics actually do not reflect the archetypes, it will lead to disengagement. At some point people might say "What you mean that my massive half-orc that looks like Hulk is no stronger than a halfling?" or "What you mean that my Legolas clone is no more dextrous than a dwarf?"
I think this is true, and one of the things about it is that those archetypes change over time, so people coming into the hobby have different expectations than those who have been around an uncomfortable and embarrassing number of decades. The tropes on which D&D was builtby Gygax, Arneson and other members of the "progenitor generation" are different than those of today. They were different by the mid 80s, and again in the 90s, and so on. Gygax didn't read Harry Potter or Ranger's Apprentice as a kid, or watch Stephen Universe or Adventure Time. There is no reason to expect that the appealing recognizable archetypes will remain the same, or even should.
 

Cadence

Legend
Supporter
I think this is true, and one of the things about it is that those archetypes change over time, so people coming into the hobby have different expectations than those who have been around an uncomfortable and embarrassing number of decades. The tropes on which D&D was builtby Gygax, Arneson and other members of the "progenitor generation" are different than those of today. They were different by the mid 80s, and again in the 90s, and so on. Gygax didn't read Harry Potter or Ranger's Apprentice as a kid, or watch Stephen Universe or Adventure Time. There is no reason to expect that the appealing recognizable archetypes will remain the same, or even should.
Definitely.

I like that 5e attempted to do the smorgasbord approach and had the classic races and the Tieflings and Dragonborn. That it updated where it felt updating would be needed.

There is no reason to expect that the appealing recognizable archetypes will remain the same or even should... but there is no reason to think that they will all go away like flipping a light switch. And, as others have noted, "D&D" has long since become it's own thing too, with its own archetypes.
 

I think this is true, and one of the things about it is that those archetypes change over time, so people coming into the hobby have different expectations than those who have been around an uncomfortable and embarrassing number of decades. The tropes on which D&D was builtby Gygax, Arneson and other members of the "progenitor generation" are different than those of today. They were different by the mid 80s, and again in the 90s, and so on. Gygax didn't read Harry Potter or Ranger's Apprentice as a kid, or watch Stephen Universe or Adventure Time. There is no reason to expect that the appealing recognizable archetypes will remain the same, or even should.
Sure, that certainly is true. But whatever the archetypes are, I think the game needs to mechanically support them and offer niche protection.
 

But we should not forget that we are in fantasy worlds.
in a world with dragon, demon, undead, suddenly we care very much about the relation about the size and the strength?
if you deny a halfling have 20 strength, why not deny a dragon ability to fly, it is no more logic on pure anatomic point of view.
 

Reynard

Legend
Sure, that certainly is true. But whatever the archetypes are, I think the game needs to mechanically support them and offer niche protection.
One of the wider tropes that D&D is embracing, though, is that everybody is capable in their own way and that just because you are different in some way doesn't mean you are in any way less capable. That is what D&D is embracing in an overarching way, along with new interpretations of old archetypes and completely new ideas. And it's a net good, i think, even if I personally like my halflings chubby little hobbits with hearts of steal and my goblins monsters from the dark that die in droves on heroes' swords.
 

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