D&D 5E A Compilation of all the Race Changes in Monsters of the Multiverse

Over on Reddit, user KingJackel went through the video leak which came out a few days ago and manually compiled a list of all the changes to races in the book. The changes are quite extensive, with only the fairy and harengon remaining unchanged. The book contains 33 races in total, compiled and updated from previous Dungeons & Dragons books.

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Russ Morrissey

Russ Morrissey


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Azzy

KMF DM
Just so I'm clear. Your claim is that if players roll 3d6 in order, and choose a class based on what they qualify for, the average Constitution for the Dwarves will be 10.5, even though they have a minimum of 9 required to choose to be a Dwarf?
Pretty much.
 


Why?
I think the whole package is a perfect match for losing ASI. You can enforce natural strong and big character without touching a score that has too many gaming implications.
As I said, the score is named Strength and directly affects lifting power. That is never not going to be confusing in light of these other factors, without further explanation (maybe not even then).
 


Remathilis

Legend
"Versimulitude is bad. It gets in the way of fantasy and forces things to be like they are in real world."

Agreed. Like how a race was created by hyenas mutating after eating demon ichor turned into a bunch of feral beast-men fueled but hunger, rage, and hatred?

"No. Not like that. I was thinking more about how physics doesn't apply to halflings."

...
I mean, to a certain degree that versimulitude is a cudgel wielded to badwrongfun people and shoot down ideas, but I find it deeply ironic that people can claim "it's fantasy" when it applies to a halfling's strength score, but demand realism when dealing with cosmic forces of good and evil or interventionist malevolent deities creating creatures in thier image.

Now feel free to continue arguing about disassociated mechanics and how that applies to halfling strength scores (for what that's worth, I made my peace with it back in Tasha's) but I wanted to point out the irony of defending some things with "it's fantasy, it's not real" but then arguing "this isn't fantasy, it represents real world ideas" with others.
 


And goliath affects lifting power directly.
It is still additive to strength, and has no bearing on other aspects of applied muscle power, like, say, an arm wrestling contest (where the length of the competitors arms alluded to above would also be a factor.

How would you (any of you) narrate said contest with a halfling victory? Actually curious, as this sort of thing comes up.
 

Snarf Zagyg

Notorious Liquefactionist
My understanding of GNS is that "simulationism" is that it is far less about simulating any real world notions of "realism," but, rather, it's more about genre/setting simulation. There is a concern for internal consistency, setting interaction, genre versimilitude, etc. but these have more to do with simulating the setting than simulating reality.

I think that this is an accurate, and often overlooked, point. I completely agree with you.

Many debates about "simunlationism" (either using the term expressly, or implicitly by saying that something doesn't feel "right" or "real") are often not about simulationism per se, but are instead discussions about what people really want the RPG to model. In other words, people aren't really arguing about whether the game should have some aspects of simulation, but instead are implicitly arguing about the correct genre to be simulating.

That's a little abstract, so to put it in more concrete terms-

I think it is a banal and usually accepted point to say that D&D has generally (not for everyone, and not always) gone from a game of heroes to a game of superheroes. In other words, the typical tropes of D&D in the past has had "realism" be that "normal" people acquire greater powers, through magic or magic items, but still operate somewhat akin to our reality. Theme park medievalism.

Increasingly over time, people use D&D to model more superheroic characters- characters that are able to do things innately that "normal" people can't do, or that operate in a way that corresponds to genre conventions that are more popular now; characters themselves can bend reality innately (similar to wuxia or anime) without necessarily using overt magic.

Both are simulations- they are just simulating different genres. Nevertheless, it is common for some to argue that the first (the theme park medievalism) is "real" or "simulationist" and the second is "wrong" or "doesn't feel right."

I would say that 5e kind of splits the difference, and still allows both styles of play ... but leans heavily toward simulating the superheroic. It is easier to model (for example) a Trevor Belmont from the animated Castlevania using 5e than it would have been using TSR-era rules.

All of this is IMO, ymmv, etc.
 

Vaalingrade

Legend
"Versimulitude is bad. It gets in the way of fantasy and forces things to be like they are in real world."

Agreed. Like how a race was created by hyenas mutating after eating demon ichor turned into a bunch of feral beast-men fueled but hunger, rage, and hatred?

"No. Not like that. I was thinking more about how physics doesn't apply to halflings."

...
I mean, to a certain degree that versimulitude is a cudgel wielded to badwrongfun people and shoot down ideas, but I find it deeply ironic that people can claim "it's fantasy" when it applies to a halfling's strength score, but demand realism when dealing with cosmic forces of good and evil or interventionist malevolent deities creating creatures in thier image.
I don't see anyone objecting to either backsliding gnolls form the 4e flavor or disliking always evil races on 'versimitude' grounds.

It's about getting rid of a rich, interesting backstory for 'zombies with extra steps' and the whole issue of 'always evil' being problematic.
 

Cadence

Legend
Supporter
Pretty much.

tldr; The expected value under the situation I think you're agreeing to is 11.8125, not 10.5

-----------------------

In the table below, #Con out of 216 is the number out of 216 rolls that would end up with each consitution. So there is a 21/216 chance of rolling an 8, for example.

The columns C through T indicate if the class is allowed based on that roll. With a con of 8 you can be a Cleric, not a Dwarf, an Elf if Int is 9+, a Fighter, not a Halfling, a Magic-User, or a Thief.


1643642597320.png



Case 1:
Consider selecting the class randomly from all of those allowed. For a Con below 9, a Dwarf can never be selected. For a Con of 9 or higher, the chance of picking a Dwarf is 27/175 (Each of the C, D, F, M, and T can happen all of the time, while the E and H need to have a 9+ in a specified other skill, so the chance of that happening is 20/27. So the chance of a Dwarf is 1/(5+2*(20/27))=1/(175/27)=27/175.

Now consider rolling 1400 characters. The expected number of Dwarves for each Con of 9 or higher is calculated by taking 1400*(#/216)*(27/175). This is in the column labeled #Dwarf out of 1400. (It is 0 for below 9, because there aren't any).

There are a total of 160 Dwarves rolled out of the 1400 characters.

The expected value (mean) of the Cons is:
(25/160)*9+(27/160)*10+(27/160)*11+(25/160)*12+(21/160)*13+(15/160)*14+
(10/160)*15+(6/160)*16+(3/160)*17+(1/160)*18
which is 1890/160 = 11+13/16 = 11.8125.

Case 2:
Consider choosing to play a Dwarf whenever it is allowed. In that case column J becomes the number of Dwarves out of 216 rolled. There are still 160 Dwarves, and the math for the expected value doesn't change.

Case 3:
Rerolling until you get a 9+ on Con. The numbers in column J out of 160 are the chance that you get the Con for that row, and the math for the expected value doesn't change.
 
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It is still additive to strength, and has no bearing on other aspects of applied muscle power, like, say, an arm wrestling contest (where the length of the competitors arms alluded to above would also be a factor.

How would you (any of you) narrate said contest with a halfling victory? Actually curious, as this sort of thing comes up.
It is easy. The goliath trys to push you down, but due to your massive muscles he just can't push you down to the table. And then you grin and push him back.
Easy. Actually there are a few movies where the smaller seemingly less muscular guy wins in arm wrestling.

Actually I found something that might help imagining it.
 

Cadence

Legend
Supporter
It is easy. The goliath trys to push you down, but due to your massive muscles he just can't push you down to the table. And then you grin and push him back.
Easy. Actually there are a few movies where the smaller seemingly less muscular guy wins in arm wrestling.

Actually I found something that might help imagining it.

Darn you physics and leverage!


When this thread repeats in a year I'll have to pick something different as an example :)
 



Why?
I think the whole package is a perfect match for losing ASI. You can enforce natural strong and big character without touching a score that has too many gaming implications.
You can do it but you have to do it.

I went through the issues with the current desgin in much more detail in an earlier post.
 

Where is your stats about race class synergie without ASI?
In the row marked 'human'.

To make a real good statistical case you need the comparison between those two.
You might do correlation, but you never know if there is a hidden factor you missed. (Maybe pictures of Goliaths are more influencing than the ASI).
Maybe they are. That the design as a whole (which includes but is not limited to ASIs), is influencing race class synergies was precisely the point that I was making.

Also. What are you actually even arguing against here? It's not the basic thesis of the post you quoted.

Do you disagree that mechanics drive behaviour? And if so do you believe that removing ASIs in order to free up player choices was unnecessary? (Because mechanics don't drive behaviour).
 
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Humans are as close as we can get to perfect example of what we get when there is no synergies driving people toward any particular class.
No. They are not other races. We need a sample of what other traits of races might also affect your decision. Otherwise you won´t be able to assess how important stat bonuses are as an independant factor.
 

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