D&D 5E (2024) Changes to the Command spell and its use at the table.

[UngeheuerLich]

But you do have to move away. If the only way to do that is through a wall of fire or off of a cliff then you would move through the fire or off of a cliff.

Away leaves a lot of room to interpret.

If you can go around the wall of fire or cliff it is a different story, but the spell compels you to do what it says to do and you would not stop unless you had to stop, like if you are in a dead end corridor and can't flee through a stone wall.

Agreed.

But the question is if you perceive a wall of fire, a cliff or lava as traversable.

Maybe I'd just give a second chance to save at this point. Maybe against intelligence. I don't know.*

In 4e in such cases you got a straight d20 save vs 10.

*I guess this is something I would get an agreement on with my players. They would certainly agree on not suiciding due to a level 1 spell.
We also got to an agreement on suggestion.

 

[Reynard]

But the question is if you perceive a wall of fire, a cliff or lava as traversable.

This is the most important bit. "Flee" should mean "get away as quickly as possible, but also surviving." A creature might not run off a cliff, then, but could certainly try and climb down it. A creature might not run into the lava but might try to hop between cool stones or move along the end until they can do so.

 

[Questianor]

This is the most important bit. "Flee" should mean "get away as quickly as possible, but also surviving." A creature might not run off a cliff, then, but could certainly try and climb down it. A creature might not run into the lava but might try to hop between cool stones or move along the end until they can do so.

"Should", maybe, but that's not what the spell says. It just says the target flees by the fastest means available. The language about the command not being able to compel directly harmful action is gone, and there's nothing in the spell that says enemies are to prioritize their survival while being magically compelled by it. The only wiggle room here is however the creature or the DM interpets "fastest means available"- and I say "or" because with the new spell I'm not actually sure if the creature's interpretation matters. After all, the creature no longer needs to be able to understand the word spoken, and in fact that seems like it should make the spell usable even against creatures that are too mindless to interpret commands. The fact that they've hard-limited the available words also seems to suggest they're trying to move away from the "you try to think of a command and the creature tries to genie-wish comply with it" aspect of the spell and move it more towards just having predetermined effects. They almost feel more like Power Words than "commands" now, despite the name.

Edited to add: if the creature's interpretation does matter, you could still make a case that a field of lava might not be thought of as a "means available" to travel by a creature does not naturally move through lava, but I'd make the case it should have tp be more like "I didn't think of it" thing than a "I don't want to die" thing, since it seems that the new spell does want you to be able to compel a creature to harm themselves, so the latter consideration shouldn't be able to stop them.

 

[Reynard]

"Should", maybe, but that's not what the spell says. It just says the target flees by the fastest means available. The language about the command not being able to compel directly harmful action is gone, and there's nothing in the spell that says enemies are to prioritize their survival while being magically compelled by it. The only wiggle room here is however the creature or the DM interpets "fastest means available"- and I say "or" because with the new spell I'm not actually sure if the creature's interpretation matters. After all, the creature no longer needs to be able to understand the word spoken, and in fact that seems like it should make the spell usable even against creatures that are too mindless to interpret commands. The fact that they've hard-limited the available words also seems to suggest they're trying to move away from the "you try to think of a command and the creature tries to genie-wish comply with it" aspect of the spell and move it more towards just having predetermined effects. They almost feel more like Power Words than "commands" now, despite the name.

It does not say "regardless of harm to itself" either. As far as we can tell, the spell does not affect the personality or intelligence of the creature involved, so the Gm has to adjudicate that. A beast or mindless undead might run off a cliff, but there is no reason at all to believe a bandit or goblin would. That is just players trying to turn a weak spell into Finger of Death.

 

[Questianor]

It does not say "regardless of harm to itself" either. As far as we can tell, the spell does not affect the personality or intelligence of the creature involved, so the Gm has to adjudicate that. A beast or mindless undead might run off a cliff, but there is no reason at all to believe a bandit or goblin would. That is just players trying to turn a weak spell into Finger of Death.

A beast isn't any more likely to run off a cliff than a humanoid I should think. It's not like wild creatures are all constantly dying of fall damage because they can't understand the concept. And you blame "players" for this, but I think this is in fact an intentional change. Why remove the language against compels creatures directly harm themselves if you don't want to option to let players compel creatures to directly harm themselves? Anyway it's hardly Finger of Death- this usage is dependent on relevant environmental hazards being in the creature's path. And there are plenty of ways to force creatures into environmental hazards already.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

"Should", maybe, but that's not what the spell says. It just says the target flees by the fastest means available. The language about the command not being able to compel directly harmful action is gone, and there's nothing in the spell that says enemies are to prioritize their survival while being magically compelled by it. The only wiggle room here is however the creature or the DM interpets "fastest means available"- and I say "or" because with the new spell I'm not actually sure if the creature's interpretation matters.

I guess traversing lava is not really fast.

After all, the creature no longer needs to be able to understand the word spoken, and in fact that seems like it should make the spell usable even against creatures that are too mindless to interpret commands. The fact that they've hard-limited the available words also seems to suggest they're trying to move away from the "you try to think of a command and the creature tries to genie-wish comply with it" aspect of the spell and move it more towards just having predetermined effects. They almost feel more like Power Words than "commands" now, despite the name.

Flee is different from suiciding.

Edited to add: if the creature's interpretation does matter, you could still make a case that a field of lava might not be thought of as a "means available" to travel by a creature does not naturally move through lava, but I'd make the case it should have tp be more like "I didn't think of it" thing than a "I don't want to die" thing, since it seems that the new spell does want you to be able to compel a creature to harm themselves, so the latter consideration shouldn't be able to stop them.

No. I don't think the new spell wants anything.

Fleeing is a survival instinct. Killing yourself is the opposite of it. So killing yourself in order to flee seems like a hard misinterpretation.

But as I always say: of this is how someone wants to play a game. Please play it that way...
... and if a player tries to game the system and does not want a friendly game, they are free to leave.

A few years ago I would have just faced them against hordes of level 1 spellcasters that only use command against this player. But I really do not want to be that antagonistic anymore.

We have a free will and we can make rulings that allow us to play a nice game. And the DMG tells us to use the friendly interpretation if in doubt.

So why torture yourself and your players with a ruling that makes the game worse?