D&D 5E Levels 1-4 are "Training Wheels?"

Scruffy nerf herder

Toaster Loving AdMech Boi
Sorry! My brain might have skipped. I wasn't sure if your "Yeah no..." was agreeing with the post you quoted or disagreeing.
Well the thing is that if you understand all the core principles behind the math, you can give literally whatever abilities, bonuses, what have you that you want to the players, and simply set up whatever challenges, RP, skills, combat etc. you present to give them on average a 55-70% probability of success.

55-70% is considered the preferred range normally because it's more fun for the GM and players if at minimum they succeed a little more than they fail. Imposing advantage and disadvantage is intended to force the probabilities a little outside these ranges; btw advantage is the mathematical equivalent of +5, or 25%.

There's nothing strange or "he's not really playing that edition then" about manipulating these numbers behind the screen in order to delight the players.
 

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Cadence

Legend
Supporter
Well the thing is that if you understand all the core principles behind the math, you can give literally whatever abilities, bonuses, what have you that you want to the players, and simply set up whatever challenges, RP, skills, combat etc. you present to give them on average a 55-70% probability of success.

55-70% is considered the preferred range normally because it's more fun for the GM and players if at minimum they succeed a little more than they fail. Imposing advantage and disadvantage is intended to force the probabilities a little outside these ranges; btw advantage is the mathematical equivalent of +5, or 25%.

There's nothing strange or "he's not really playing that edition then" about manipulating these numbers behind the screen in order to delight the players.

I was going with the line about:

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Maybe I read too much into "using 3e rules" and took it as "all the 3e rules". Certainly you could sub out a few systems and it would still be just a modded 5e. At some point it feels like it becomes "inspired by 5e" and then still further, having nothing about 5e left.
 

Scruffy nerf herder

Toaster Loving AdMech Boi
The PHB and DMG encourages homebrewing.

It also encourages both players and DMs agreeing to a similar frame of reference, sticking to it, and changing it collectively.

DM final say hinges on the Players knowing where the DM is coming from.
The player is not the monster manual, the DM is. It doesn't make sense to think a DM isn't being consistent and clear enough for the players simply because he tailors the encounters, RP, combat or otherwise, in order to provide the players with the best experience.

You're not changing the action economy or anything crazy by writing behind your screen that some guy has 15 instead of 13 AC. And yes of course if I happen to flat out homebrew different rules for something, the players not only know of and agree to this but they prefer it to 5e. The PHB isn't some kind of bible.

In fact there's the expectation from the players that DMs will at their own discretion flub dice rolls and use private rolls as well. To be candid I've even decided to crit players just to ratchet up the tension and fun.

The crowd that I grew up playing the game with was never all that rules lawyery either.
 

Cadence

Legend
Supporter
In fact there's the expectation from the players that DMs will at their own discretion flub dice rolls and use private rolls as well. To be candid I've even decided to crit players just to ratchet up the tension and fun.

How the flubbing die rolls and adjusting things on the fly goes over seems to vary a lot between players. It's one of those things I have grown to feel should be discussed in session 0. (Of course I don't know how the players who get upset by that know when you've decided reinforcements just haven't heard anything or that they'll forget some magic item they had, or the like.)
 

Scruffy nerf herder

Toaster Loving AdMech Boi
I was going with the line about:

View attachment 150244
Maybe I read too much into "using 3e rules" and took it as "all the 3e rules". Certainly you could sub out a few systems and it would still be just a modded 5e. At some point it feels like it becomes "inspired by 5e" and then still further, having nothing about 5e left.

I like how you phrase that. To be frank it wouldn't really make any difference whether the game even resembled 5E too much so long as the players and DM are getting the TTRPG experience they're looking for.

Some of you might be surprised that even people who were developers for the 5E PHB have presented radical and fun alternatives to rules you would think of as pretty fundamental and core rules. We use an alternative to initiative that was created by one of those developers and he set it up like this:

There's no such thing as initiative any more. It's now tactics and time economy. At the beginning of each round, players consider what they're going to do and have opportunity to enjoy discussing strategy with each other for a second, then they roll specific dice for the actions they want to take.

It's on a nice simplified chart. Ranged is D4, melee is D8, spellcasting is D12, and it's +D6 to move and/or do something. Whatever it is that the PC is doing during that six seconds will determine the time it takes for them to do it. Want to go early in the round? Build your turn that way then.

Is it not your turn yet and you also want to do something else now? Add the appropriate dice to your total number that round.
 

Scruffy nerf herder

Toaster Loving AdMech Boi
How the flubbing die rolls and adjusting things on the fly goes over seems to vary a lot between players. It's one of those things I have grown to feel should be discussed in session 0. (Of course I don't know how the players who get upset by that know when you've decided reinforcements just haven't heard anything or that they'll forget some magic item they had, or the like.)
You really have to establish the understanding with the player that you guys are playing an RPG and the Game Master wants to put the Game in the game, and work kind of like a developer to make the product that hits the sweet spot.
 

Scruffy nerf herder

Toaster Loving AdMech Boi
I mean look I'm not some kind of expert on 70s and 80s D&D history and culture but I do know for certain that the main training wheels back then were the core rulebooks and other articles that TSR published to give more fun options. They were way more explicit in Greyhawk and AD&D about the DM only needing to view their material as guidelines meant to help them and the players have an awesome tabletop experience.

It was only later that they got protective about their intellectual property and keeping customers loyal, etc., and then you'd got Gygax as Mr. D&D, as opposed to Gary your friendly OG DM willing to answer any strange questions over the phone and instructing them that so long as you understand the core ideas behind it all you have free license to do whatever the heck you want.

You could simply look the man up in the phone book in Wisconsin (if I'm not mistaken) back then and call him out of the blue, and he would answer and enjoy giving advice and spitballing ideas with strangers.

I mean for pete's sake it says right there in Greyhawk that you can have players riding dinosaurs, and then proceeds to list all kinds of zany anecdotes from people totally winging it, and then basically says: "That stuff? Yeah we love that stuff and do it too you should try it man."
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
The player is not the monster manual, the DM is. It doesn't make sense to think a DM isn't being consistent and clear enough for the players simply because he tailors the encounters, RP, combat or otherwise, in order to provide the players with the best experience.

You're not changing the action economy or anything crazy by writing behind your screen that some guy has 15 instead of 13 AC. And yes of course if I happen to flat out homebrew different rules for something, the players not only know of and agree to this but they prefer it to 5e. The PHB isn't some kind of bible.

In fact there's the expectation from the players that DMs will at their own discretion flub dice rolls and use private rolls as well. To be candid I've even decided to crit players just to ratchet up the tension and fun.

The crowd that I grew up playing the game with was never all that rules lawyery either.

The discussion was not about minor DM changes.

The discussion was about the dramatic fundamental changes in play that happen when you shift between Tiers (properly).

The DM can't adjust that without adjusting the actual social contract of the campaign between players. It is creating a new game experience. Should a change creates a moment where an additional Session 0 would occur. Because the changes to the rules would have created a new campaign.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Exactly how big are these places in your campaigns ? For me, if there are 20 people at a given time, it's a good day, so you will at best, in large cities, find 1-2 persons who have magic items, so the probability that they have anything to trade and which would be of interest to you is extremely small.
Depends on the city. In one large city in my setting where a number of PCs have quasi-based themselves the mercenaries' guild (including gladiators, it's a thing there) has several hundred members plus a constant stream of visitors and transients. Most of the several hundred members aren't adventurers but the visitors and transients almost always are; and many of the non-adventurers still have a level or two of Fighter to them, built up over the years of doing what they do.
All of that seems really nice and still fairly low level, how does this foster magic item trade? I agree that at higher levels, our adventuring groups have usually many contacts, some with powerful organisations, some of them high level, but somehow magic item trade never comes on the table. Items are private, have a history of being found and used, and not easily parted with.

Moreover, another factor is that in 5e, a lot of items are usable by a lot of people in the party, because there are almost no generic "plusses" items. There might be a few magic weapons, but for example in Avernus, the party still has a use for those that have been found.
That's another thing 1e tends to do: quite a few items are restricted as to who can use them, most often by class but sometimes by species or a stat requirement. Further, in 1e a Fighter is proficient only with a small number of weapons chosen by the player (something I very much like), meaning there's going to be times when the magic weapon you've just found ain't gonna do you much good.
Temples probably, Guilds I'm not so sure, and who maintains defenses that are strong enough to deter theft, even admitting that trading item is something they do. I rather imagine temples in particular, but also guilds, hoading items secretely for their champions and not advertising that they have a huge wealth in items ready to be stolen.
Trusted temples and mage guilds might also double as the local equivalent to banks, meaning their security had better be pretty airtight.
As long as having arcanist create items, I'd rather them not be artificers, it's a PC class, and I don't need that for my NPCs who could create items.
Yeah, I'm distinguishing between small-a artificer (a person who makes magic items) and capital-A Artificer (the class). I probably haven't been clear enough on this; it's just that artificer is a good term to mean "person who makes and-or enchants magic items".
We dropped that AD&D thing a while ago, and although some items are lost, I think everyone likes 5e where your treasured few items are not being destroyed every time you miss a save.
I kinda prefer the easy come, easy go idea - that way, you're always getting new toys! :)
As mentioned, that kind of thing is sort of OK, it's just tightly controlled, and in most campaigns, adventurers don't have time to wait a few months for commissions anyway.
That not having time is what makes commissioning an item both a serious choice and a bit of a risk. Even then, now and then in my game someone will do it.
As artificers did not exist, I don't think it was the case. 3e did a huge try of assigning monetary value to specific properties, and it sort of worked, and it was linked to the creation cost, but it was the other way around for what you described, it was usability, translated into price, then into creation price.
Both the 3e and 4e strict-formulaic approaches overlook one very important thing: the item's actual usefulness in the field. In 3e, for example, a Wand of Cure Light Wounds is hella more useful than a Wand of Grease yet as they each replicate a 1st-level spell the formula sets their costs as the same

1e's pricing at least kinda looks at the field-usefulness piece but it's not perfect, and some famous typos in the DMG don't help either. :)
Downtime is usually boring too, you know, it's "down". :)
Oh, not for me! Downtime is when I get to have my PCs interact with the setting on their terms: making contacts, building structures, exerting some of that influence gained through adventuring, buying and selling items, researching spells (if of the right class), living high off the hog, etc., etc.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
In fact there's the expectation from the players that DMs will at their own discretion flub dice rolls and use private rolls as well. To be candid I've even decided to crit players just to ratchet up the tension and fun.

The crowd that I grew up playing the game with was never all that rules lawyery either.
The bolded would be fightin' words around here, where the DM is expected to fairly and neutrally let the chips fall where they may.
 

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