Joss Whedon Allegations: The Undoing of the "Buffy" Creator

[Ath'kethin]

I never got the reverence for Buffy. We watched it as it was airing back in the day (my best friend and his girlfriend/later wife/now ex-wife were huge fans), and it was always problematic [stuff]. Always. I never even saw it being particularly feminist, LGB-friendly, or even female-empowered; sure, much of the main cast was female, but the show was still extraordinarily patriarchal under the window dressing.

And in the commentary for the Buffy Complete Series DVD set, Whedon straight up talked about harassing the actors and making their working lives hell. It's pretty messed up that he's trying to defend himself now, when he literally went on record 20-odd years ago talking about all the crap he was pulling.

 

[GreyLord]

I watched Buffy many years ago. It was a while ago.

If I recall, it started to go downhill fast after she died (yes, I know, she came back, but it was when she died that it started going downhill).

What's worse, is that was actually a pretty good ending point if one really wanted to get down to it.

The show took a MASSIVE dive rather quickly and the next season I just could not get into the show anymore.

I DID start watching some of Angel, but I don't think I made it past season 2. Perhaps that was what was missing from Buffy, not as much Angel in the show anymore and too much Spike (and no offense to the actor, he did a superb job, but perhaps that's what I didn't care for much in Angel when Spike came on in that show as well??)

I suppose this doesn't have much to do with the thread itself, but I don't think Whedon had as much impact on what I enjoy as it has others.

I watched Firefly long after it was popular (and had dropped). I watched it after watching Serenity.

I did (and still do) think Whedon's cut of Justice League is FAR superior to Snyders. Snyder's is just too long, too graphic, and too dark. Maybe it reflects what comic books are today, but it certainly doesn't reflect what they used to be. If one wants that, go to Marvel. Snyder's was like the opposite of everything Marvel's movies are.

I think that's about the most I've watched of Whedon's stuff that I am aware of. In that light, I suppose I should not have as big a voice in relation to concerns about him...others...maybe.

Thank goodness that thus far (as far as I know) nothing has ever come out about Brian Jacques. I have all his books and still enjoy them and hope more material (I know he has passed, but movies, shows, games, etc. could still be made) is created.

 

[AnotherGuy]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Whedon's Astonishing X-men 24-comic run which was pretty good. There were other comics which he did but I felt his 2-year story arc with A-Xmen was great. I never could get into BtVS or Angel, it wasn't for me, so I was no fan of his, until I read these from a friend who was a die-hard Whedon fan.

 

[MGibster]

The show took a MASSIVE dive rather quickly and the next season I just could not get into the show anymore.

Oh, yeah. Buffy should have ended on a high note with season 5. Even with the musical episode, I found seasons 6 and 7 to be rather tedious. The series finale wasn't bad but it couldn't make up for the bad seasons.

I don’t think most people want to see Joss broken or humbled. We just want to end his influence on our culture, or failing that reduce it and lessen his ability to get new things made that will influence the culture.

You can't un-ring a bell as the influence of the likes of Whedon, Cosby, Bradley, and other terrible people can't really be removed. All those women influenced by MZB's work will remain influenced by that work even despite the horrific revelations her children made a few years back. But it's a bit easier to lessen the ability of a living person from influencing the culture in the future. Though I have a feeling Whedon will eventually find work again. Perhaps not as a showrunner, but as a script doctor or writing in another capacity.

 

[MGibster]

I never got the reverence for Buffy. We watched it as it was airing back in the day (my best friend and his girlfriend/later wife/now ex-wife were huge fans), and it was always problematic naughty word. Always. I never even saw it being particularly feminist, LGB-friendly, or even female-empowered; sure, much of the main cast was female, but the show was still extraordinarily patriarchal under the window dressing.

Were you watching it when it premiered almost 25 years ago? It had a distinctive voice compared to many other shows from the late 90s in a time where horror/fantasy was fairly uncommon on television.
Edit: It just occurred to me that you said you were watching it as it aired. So, yeah, you were watching it 25 years ago.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Oh, yeah. Buffy should have ended on a high note with season 5. Even with the musical episode, I found seasons 6 and 7 to be rather tedious. The series finale wasn't bad but it couldn't make up for the bad seasons.


You can't un-ring a bell as the influence of the likes of Whedon, Cosby, Bradley, and other terrible people can't really be removed. All those women influenced by MZB's work will remain influenced by that work even despite the horrific revelations her children made a few years back. But it's a bit easier to lessen the ability of a living person from influencing the culture in the future. Though I have a feeling Whedon will eventually find work again. Perhaps not as a showrunner, but as a script doctor or writing in another capacity.

Perhaps I wasn’t clear enough.

I don’t care about anything other than reducing, and if possible wholly stopping, the amount of continued influence via new works the person can have. Everything else is irrelevant. Well, justice would be great but it’s happened so rarely I don’t hold out any hope at all.

As I already said, Joss isn’t going to be speaking at colleges or conventions any time soon, his projects are not getting greenlit, he is not continuing to influence the culture.

I get really tired of this sort of nitpicking. The point is as clear as it can be, now, so please don’t come to me with a complaint about how technically this or that. I do not care.

 

[MGibster]

Perhaps I wasn’t clear enough.

I don’t care about anything other than reducing, and if possible wholly stopping, the amount of continued influence via new works the person can have. Everything else is irrelevant. Well, justice would be great but it’s happened so rarely I don’t hold out any hope at all.

As I already said, Joss isn’t going to be speaking at colleges or conventions any time soon, his projects are not getting greenlit, he is not continuing to influence the culture.

I get really tired of this sort of nitpicking. The point is as clear as it can be, now, so please don’t come to me with a complaint about how technically this or that. I do not care.

Nobody forced you to reply. You weren’t clear otherwise I wouldn’t have written what I did and I don’t think I’m nitpicking.

 

[Willie the Duck]

He's a nasty misogynistic little creep, and an authorial self insert. Should have been a red flag at the time, frankly.

But hey, he makes funny quips and is a "nice guy"

It was kind of right when the show had ended that it started getting recognized the 'nice guy' was actually kind of a toxic trope. TV and movies of the 80-90s had a lot of coded as nerd male characters (Ross on Friends, Niles on Frasier, etc.) that were secretly in love with female friends and if said friend would just recognize how perfect they were for each other (instead of the jock stereotype she really dated) than things would be great (but then the plot arc would be over, so endlessly cycle on this until the audience is sick of it and them getting together at show end is unrealistic but at the same time inevitable). Which is a longwinded way of saying yes it should have been a red flag all along, but it also seems reasonable that it didn't stand out given by what it was surrounded.

I watched Buffy many years ago. ...<snip>

Buffy seems to be one of those shows where even the super-fans tend towards, "I love everything about it, except in season ___, why in the heck did they..." There are so many (not just in seasons 6&7, the good stuff just thinned out so it was more obvious) missed opportunities, plots that went no where, inconsistent characterizations (Spike is effectively 3-4 distinct characters, depending on who was winning in the writer's room that week), favorite characters being written off, other characters sticking around despite having little to no reason for being there, and so on. There are good bits and pieces in the mix (which has to be why it has had such an impact), but I can't find a specific stretch of the show where it really was the peak awesomeness I remember it being.

 

[Bohandas]

And most historical works are . . . . not really consumed by the general public anyway.

What about the Iliad? The Iliad starts with a debate about the correct distribution of comfort women.

Or Journey to the West, which talks about slaves and eunuchs just about every other page?

 

[Parmandur]

Which is a longwinded way of saying yes it should have been a red flag all along, but it also seems reasonable that it didn't stand out given by what it was surrounded.

Oh, no, totally agreed: although I didn't see Buffy until about 2014, so the dated feeling of the show was pretty apparent by then.