What game Could "Be" D&D, Culturally?

[AtomicPope]

So many other games lacked the long play of D&D and more resembled board game design. D&D has elements of danger, but the danger is based on your involvement. Games like Traveler and WHFRP had too many mechanics where you were just removed from the game, which plays more like a board game than an RPG. There were other games where the advancement was too stagnant and the challenges were not defined (Palladium or WoD) so the campaigns would stall out rather quickly. Another problem is most games lack specific roles to give everyone a unique place at the table. Games like Marvel Super Heroes were fun but completely unbalanced and one character could completely dominate a game. So it wasn't just the time and place, there was a lot more that went into the success of D&D, and why we're always going back to it.

Think of how long we've been playing RPGs and how long it's taken for game designers to build mechanics that foster a particular style of play. It's really a miracle that D&D was able to get it done first with no frame of reference.

 

[Reynard]

So many other games lacked the long play of D&D and more resembled board game design. D&D has elements of danger, but the danger is based on your involvement. Games like Traveler and WHFRP had too many mechanics where you were just removed from the game, which plays more like a board game than an RPG. There were other games where the advancement was too stagnant and the challenges were not defined (Palladium or WoD) so the campaigns would stall out rather quickly. Another problem is most games lack specific roles to give everyone a unique place at the table. Games like Marvel Super Heroes were fun but completely unbalanced and one character could completely dominate a game. So it wasn't just the time and place, there was a lot more that went into the success of D&D, and why we're always going back to it.

Think of how long we've been playing RPGs and how long it's taken for game designers to build mechanics that foster a particular style of play. It's really a miracle that D&D was able to get it done first with no frame of reference.

Having played lots and lots of different RPGs, including most of the ones you mention, I don't agree with any of this.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Having played lots and lots of different RPGs, including most of the ones you mention, I don't agree with any of this.

Yeah. Honestly, just to contrast D&D and Traveler, while Traveler had the dumb (and I say that even understanding the purpose it served in constraining character gen, but it was still dumb) die-in-character gen, you really weren't any more brittle in most combats than low level D&D characters were, no more likely to be taken out of play in other ways. It did lack any in-play (as compared to training based) advancement, but that wasn't true of some of his other examples (and honestly, you'd probably notice a World of Darkness character's advancement more than you would an OD&D fighter's).

 

[innerdude]

D&D not existing leads to vast holes in the timeline including foundational video games like Colossal Cave Adventure, Wizardry, Ultima, and from them DragonQuest and Final Fantasy. It possibly also sweeps the legs out from under Games Workshop who initially grew from the makers of hand crafted wooden boardgames when they got an exclusive license as the D&D importers.

It's such a huge hole I'm going with "If Gygax & Arneson hadn't published D&D in 1974 then something equivalent would have happened".

I mentioned it earlier, but my big question in all of these hypotheticals is, does Nu-RPG, whatever it is, get off the ground and with the same traction as D&D before 1977? Because if not, I think the creative energy behind RPG design would radically shift following the release of Star Wars.

The question is, what direction? Would the tabletop wargamers have jumped on that bandwagon, because suddenly there was a massive untapped market? Would the convention / freeform RP groups have tried creating their own thing to capture that, especially since Star Trek also hopped on the bandwagon and tried riding that same wave with the first motion picture in 1979?

 

[Reynard]

I mentioned it earlier, but my big question in all of these hypotheticals is, does Nu-RPG, whatever it is, get off the ground and with the same traction as D&D before 1977? Because if not, I think the creative energy behind RPG design would radically shift following the release of Star Wars.

The question is, what direction? Would the tabletop wargamers have jumped on that bandwagon, because suddenly there was a massive untapped market? Would the convention / freeform RP groups have tried creating their own thing to capture that, especially since Star Trek also hopped on the bandwagon and tried riding that same wave with the first motion picture in 1979?

Again, I wasn't really positing a world where D&D never existed, just one where D&D died with TSR.

 

[dragoner]

D&D is its own universe, it builds on medieval myth, then goes from there. That said, just about anything, some D&D analog, to sci-fi, like Star Wars or Star Trek.

 

[Reynard]

D&D is its own universe, it builds on medieval myth, then goes from there. That said, just about anything, some D&D analog, to sci-fi, like Star Wars or Star Trek.

Interesting. So you don't think there is an inherent quality of D&D that made it the zeitgeist in the last 5 or so years? (I'm not arguing, just curious.)

 

[Scott Christian]

Middle Earth

 

[Reynard]

Middle Earth

I don't know if a setting, even one as beloved as Middle Earth, that is so focused on a singular story could get much traction. Star Wars showed early on that there was a big universe out there (except when everyone is always bumping into one another because fan service) whereas Middle Earth is "small" by comparison. I think MERP had it right in the 80s with focusing on a time totally different than but recognizable as background for the novels.

It will be interesting to see if Amazon's "Rings of Power" series opens up the perception of the setting at all.

 

[Scott Christian]

I don't know if a setting, even one as beloved as Middle Earth, that is so focused on a singular story could get much traction. Star Wars showed early on that there was a big universe out there (except when everyone is always bumping into one another because fan service) whereas Middle Earth is "small" by comparison. I think MERP had it right in the 80s with focusing on a time totally different than but recognizable as background for the novels.

It will be interesting to see if Amazon's "Rings of Power" series opens up the perception of the setting at all.

I did think about that, but came to the conclusion that while it is a single setting, it would have morphed into something larger. It would be similar to having the Icewind Dale Trilogy come out before D&D, then D&D modelling itself after. While there are a lot of die-hard "constructionists" out there, I think it would have morphed. It would have eventually gotten a Medusa and other things.