D&D 5E Orcs and Drow in YOUR game (poll */comments +)

[Lyxen]

Emphasis mine
Yes, this is what the survey presupposes, that "Any Alignment" means no predisposition and "Typically Evil" does mean a predisposition, for whatever reason in your own game, similar to 5E monster manual terminology

I think that is a bit of the ambiguity in your question. You meant probably some sort of « innate » predisposition when you used « Typically ». But the difficulty is that I did not read it that way, I can see at least four different cases:

• Innate, genetic or otherwise, I think your view.
• Innate, but due to an external factor like the influence of a divinity. This the way that orcs where presented in the original 5e PH, where the orcs, having been created by evil gods, where predisposed to evil, but not inherently.
• Cultural/Divine because due to a deity influencing strongly the cultures of the race, the fact that most orcs and/or drows are born in that culture predisposes them.
• Simply cultural, because most of the cultures of the race have an evil outlook, members of the race are usually born within a culture that predisposes them.

As for me, I am firmly in the camp where orcs and drows are in the third category, because I like my campaign to be epic with a strong influence of gods. It means that there certainly can be non evil orcs and drows, and way more than just a simple Driz’zt, whom I dislike profoundly. Either strong individuals or groups resisting their culture and god(dess)(e)(s) influence - as was described by Gygax in Erelhei-Cinlu or for orcs in the PH - or complete cultures not influenced by the god(dess)(e)(s).

Still, it does not prevent me to use the other cases, for example Mind Flayers are infused with the evil of the Far Realm, so they are simply inherently evil. But Githyanki are actually only culturally evil, so they are "typically" evil but certainly not inhenrently so.

 

[Baldurs_Underdark]

In real life I don't know any orcs and drow, so I don't offend anyone if they are just always evil in the game.

Any references that would link orc or drow to any society here on earth are removed from our games (and actually I don't even know which cultures/societies that would be).

 

[Minigiant]

Sure, I just think that people use the terms in significantly overlapping ways. Even looking at say me and my brother, who have very similar DM styles and experiences, I think we might describe essentially the same thing with different terms.

Also agree re "genetics or society" and the failure to distinguish which it is, is a big part of the problem. There should probably have been a different term for one. Or better yet it should never have been "genetic" for any conventional humanoid (monsters maybe).

Genetics, society, or divinity (the evil god actively being involved and meddling 23/7 with a race).

The problem more or less comes from the "half in half out" of many official and many homebrew settings not taking a true stance on the reason "Typically evil". There's nothing inherently wrong with typically evil but it makes little sense unless you give the reason.

For example WH orcs are typically evil becuse they are genetically violent. But because of that, orcs aren't people nor humaniods in Warhammer.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

For example WH orcs are typically evil becuse they are genetically violent. But because of that, orcs aren't people nor humaniods in Warhammer.

Orcs aren't evil in Warhammer. At least not compared to other people in there.

 

[Thunder Brother]

Drow don't exist in my setting at present.

I also don't use alignment.

Orcs are one of the major races in my setting and are just as likely to be allies as they are enemies.

 

[Minigiant]

Orcs aren't evil in Warhammer. At least not compared to other people in there.

The Orc Force is evil like every other army.

Individual orcs are typically evil as they are mentally and psychically influenced by the nearest violent orc boss.

However the nearest orc boss could be a good guy. Almost never happens but it can and does.

WH orcs are one of the few well explained nonsocietal "typically evil" races in media.

 

[Lyxen]

The problem more or less comes from the "half in half out" of many official and many homebrew settings not taking a true stance on the reason "Typically evil". There's nothing inherently wrong with typically evil but it makes little sense unless you give the reason.

Indeed, all of that mostly comes from bad interpretations, and the problem is that some of these interpretations are malicious. Honestly, the 5e PH original take on orcs was not offensive at all in itself, gods were created by evil gods to serve them, and although good orcs do exist, they have to fight against that influence. Honestly, what is bad in that ? And for drows, who were not created by Lolth, but only influenced by her, it's even easier.

The problem comes when mixing it with skin color, and while there is nothing reprehensible with the simple color black being associated with evil (it's a tendency in many cultures due to fear of the night, or so I'm told), races with dark skin (even if it's really absolute black which does not exist on earth) are problematic as well. And for orcs, it's even worse, it comes only from Peter Jackson's interpretation, since orcs in particular in D&D have never been black.

But honestly, it takes some serious willingness to find something reprehensible to have crossed the two and said "it's not acceptable that races with dark skin are inherently evil" without seeing that something like that never was said anywhere in the D&D rules.

For example WH orcs are typically evil becuse they are genetically violent. But because of that, orcs aren't people nor humaniods in Warhammer.

The thing is that if Warhammer had the same visibility as D&D, this would for sure not have been sufficient excuses. They look enough like humanoids to be some, and would therefore be considered people.

 

[Helldritch]

Unless I play in Eberron or Tal'Dorei
Orcs and Drows (and evil humanoids) are typically evil (if not always).
A rare individual might break the pattern. But it is not often.
No I don't need help.
No I don't want this to change.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

The Orc Force is evil like every other army.

Individual orcs are typically evil as they are mentally and psychically influenced by the nearest violent orc boss.

However the nearest orc boss could be a good guy. Almost never happens but it can and does.

WH orcs are one of the few well explained nonsocietal "typically evil" races in media.

Your confusion stems from thinking that Warhammer deals with good and evil.

 

[Minigiant]

Indeed, all of that mostly comes from bad interpretations, and the problem is that some of these interpretations are malicious. Honestly, the 5e PH original take on orcs was not offensive at all in itself, gods were created by evil gods to serve them, and although good orcs do exist, they have to fight against that influence. Honestly, what is bad in that ? And for drows, who were not created by Lolth, but only influenced by her, it's even easier.

Of course. Again the issue is that some downplay the influence of the gods or their influence. So the Orc and Drow alignment don't match the story and logic of the storyteller in those instances.

The problem comes when mixing it with skin color, and while there is nothing reprehensible with the simple color black being associated with evil (it's a tendency in many cultures due to fear of the night, or so I'm told), races with dark skin (even if it's really absolute black which does not exist on earth) are problematic as well. And for orcs, it's even worse, it comes only from Peter Jackson's interpretation, since orcs in particular in D&D have never been black.

The problem like I said in many threads is halfway efforts. Taking something that might be taken serious and treating it nonchalantly, being lazy, or using shortcuts to make it easier or simpler. The seed of the problem was taking shortcuts of painting races in colors and cultural aspects without thinking much about it. But that's the point of this thread.

The source of this discussion is again many fans labelling races as "Typically Evil" or "Always Evil" without thinking about how that affects the race, their lore, and the internal logic of those playing.

Typically or Always Evil Drow and Menzoberranzan doesn't make sense if you don't have Lolth messing with it half of every single day (divinity), the Drow being a powerful cult (society), or the Drow being mentally inhuman (genetics) or something similar..

The thing is that if Warhammer had the same visibility as D&D, this would for sure not have been sufficient excuses. They look enough like humanoids to be some, and would therefore be considered people.

Depends. Old Warhammer was really bad and blatant.

Modern Warhammer pushes the "logic" of Orks and Greenskins forward enough that getting upset about them would be a matter of heavy ignorance of the IP and very tilted perspective.