D&D 5E How to "fix" (or at least help) the fighter/wizard dynamic. (+)

[DND_Reborn]

The "double proficiency" is a big deal, way more than a skill. For example, to get both Perception and "double proficiency" with it, is worth a feat by itself.

I agree, but nothing in this class gives you double proficiency and a skill. It is either two proficiencies OR double proficiency in something you already have.

And it isn't quite worth a feat, even if I did do proficiency and double proficiency with it. Prodigy gives you skill proficiency with expertise and another language and tool.

Also, there are many features which do this, Rogue Scout Survivalist gives two proficiencies with expertise for them, Cleric Knowledge domain Blessings of Knowledge grants even more by including two languages.

Marvelous Surge with 3 extra combat actions looks broken.

It is the kind of thing that makes character optimization go crazy.

I don't know. It is a capstone feature which you can only use at level 20. Since I took out Extra Attack (3), I don't think it is too much, especially for people who want something which can really shift the outlook on an encounter. But your point is noted and we'll see what others have to say.

When it comes to out-of-combat features, the Fighter needs improvement.

Which is the primary purpose for Many Leagues and Superior Training, and a secondary use now for the Surges.

 

[Yaarel]

I agree, but nothing in this class gives you double proficiency and a skill. It is either two proficiencies OR double proficiency in something you already have.

And it isn't quite worth a feat, even if I did do proficiency and double proficiency with it. Prodigy gives you skill proficiency with expertise and another language and tool.

Also, there are many features which do this, Rogue Scout Survivalist gives two proficiencies with expertise for them, Cleric Knowledge domain Blessings of Knowledge grants even more by including two languages.


I don't know. It is a capstone feature which you can only use at level 20. Since I took out Extra Attack (3), I don't think it is too much, especially for people who want something which can really shift the outlook on an encounter. But your point is noted and we'll see what others have to say.


Which is the primary purpose for Many Leagues and Superior Training, and a secondary use now for the Surges.

At level 6 as the only Fighter feature, I would just say: proficiency with expertise (double proficiency).

For sure, Marvelous Surge is broken.

On the other hand, at level 20, I feel it is fine to grant an epic boon, such as Combat Prowess.

Boon of Combat Prowess​

When you miss with a melee weapon attack, you can choose to hit instead. Once you use this boon, you can't use it again until you finish a short or long rest.

 

[Lanefan]

When it comes to gaming, people seem to generally prefer buffing things over nerfing...

...until it eventually gets out of hand and we have to reboot with a new edition.

Yes people like getting more powers in the here and now, but if in the bigger picture it's bad for the game in the long run then don't do it.

 

[DND_Reborn]

At level 6 as the only Fighter feature, I would just say: proficiency with expertise (double proficiency).

I don't want to award proficiency and expertise, I want to give the player a choice: breadth or depth. I feel giving the player options is better, but as I said before I will wait for more feedback before I update it again.

For sure, Marvelous Surge is broken.

Not if you want to give something to players who want something more superheroic. I would rather have something that would allow me more options in the exploration pillar than just more attacks all the time. Marvelous Surge as a once / short rest is strong, granted, but I don't think broken at that level.

Again, I am waiting for more feedback. Your view has been noted in my change log on the homebrew.

On the other hand, at level 20, I feel it is fine to grant an epic boon, such as Combat Prowess.

Epic Boons are fine, but they vary in benefits so greatly I don't want to really fall back on them. I mean, Combat Prowess is sort of sad compared to some of the others IMO...

Anyway, let's wait to see what others have to say.

 

[Lanefan]

It isn't. Power creep is something that invalidates older options, by offering better options.

You can already run 2 wizards in the same party (making the average of that combination an 8). If the best party combination average is an 8, then the only way to power creep the game would be to boost a party combination over 8.

Disagree.

If the average is 6 then bringing Wizard down to 6 and improving Fighter up to 6 is power-steady - neither creep nor decline.

I measure power level by the overall average, as representative of the overall power of a party containing a reasonable spread of classes; and even though the Wizards' power stays the same, increasing Fighters' power also increases the power of the party as a whole and thus forces the DM to have to adjust to deal with that increase. That's power creep, in my view anyway.

 

[Yaarel]

I don't want to award proficiency and expertise, I want to give the player a choice: breadth or depth. I feel giving the player options is better, but as I said before I will wait for more feedback before I update it again.


Not if you want to give something to players who want something more superheroic. I would rather have something that would allow me more options in the exploration pillar than just more attacks all the time. Marvelous Surge as a once / short rest is strong, granted, but I don't think broken at that level.

Again, I am waiting for more feedback. Your view has been noted in my change log on the homebrew.


Epic Boons are fine, but they vary in benefits so greatly I don't want to really fall back on them. I mean, Combat Prowess is sort of sad compared to some of the others IMO...

Anyway, let's wait to see what others have to say.

Regarding Marvelous Surge, I would be unsurprised if character optimizers use it to deal over 1000 hit points of damage in a single round. Broken.



Indeed the Epic Boons are all over the place and need a revamp. But Combat Prowess in particular looks both reasonable and exceptionally powerful.



Regarding skills. It would be more like either expertise with a skill/tool already known, or else 4 new skills/tools.

 

[Lanefan]

I would be fine with putting Extra Attack (2) back at 11th and moving Heroic Surge to replace Improved Critical.


Well, trying to come up with features that are universally applicable to generic fighters while not being OP or boring ( ) is the challenge. I don't think followers would have universal appeal and might be better suited towards a Warlord subclass.

Even in AD&D I rarely bothered with such things for my fighters after name level...

One thing to keep in mind regarding strongholds etc. is that for most campaigns they take, relative to the time spanned by adventuring activities, a stupendous amount of time to construct. I'm finding this as a player; my namesake character is looking to build one and is staring down a potentially 10-to-20 year construction period (and is looking hard for options to speed this up!).

Another character in an older version of the same campaign started building one; there was a ten-year time jump into the current campaign and he still hasn't finished the place, though it's at least liveable-innable and functional. He did, however, have the small advantage of coming into a title of nobility, meaning he had access to loads of local labour to help with construction.

Thus, while adding strongholds to Fighters as a calss feature sounds great in theory, and I'm all for it, it won't work in practice unless said strongholds are either already in place or can magically appear in a hurry.

 

[Yaarel]

One thing to keep in mind regarding strongholds etc. is that for most campaigns they take, relative to the time spanned by adventuring activities, a stupendous amount of time to construct. I'm finding this as a player; my namesake character is looking to build one and is staring down a potentially 10-to-20 year construction period (and is looking hard for options to speed this up!).

Another character in an older version of the same campaign started building one; there was a ten-year time jump into the current campaign and he still hasn't finished the place, though it's at least liveable-innable and functional. He did, however, have the small advantage of coming into a title of nobility, meaning he had access to loads of local labour to help with construction.

Thus, while adding strongholds to Fighters as a calss feature sounds great in theory, and I'm all for it, it won't work in practice unless said strongholds are either already in place or can magically appear in a hurry.

Why not employ mages to build the stronghold magically?

 

[DND_Reborn]

Regarding Marvelous Surge, I would be unsurprised if character optimizers use it to deal over 1000 hit points of damage in a single round. Broken.

Not possible.

Even using Marvelous Surge for 12 attacks and a bonus action attack, no Fighter class is going to deal an average of nearly 77 points of damage per hit, assuming all 13 attacks hit.

 

[Yaarel]

Not possible.

Even using Marvelous Surge for 12 attacks and a bonus action attack, no Fighter class is going to deal an average of nearly 77 points of damage per hit, assuming all 13 attacks hit.

77 points?

Heh, you dont hang out at charop boards!